5 ms·

You make zero sense. If you can't trust a map, what can you trust? Or should it be less reliable because it's an app? People aren't stupid, it's we - devs and

You make zero sense. If you can't trust a map, what can you trust? Or should it be less reliable because it's an app? People aren't stupid, it's we - devs and designers - who have designed apps that confuse and deceit them, sometimes dangerously so. Let's stop blaming users and fix our shitty UIs.

ghaff 5y ago
Even OSM (which tends to be better than Google Maps for hiking trails) has far from 100% coverage for hiking trails. (Though I'm guessing it's likely pretty good for a popular destination.) It still doesn't tell you anything more about the route--for which a map by itself is probably not enough. It's also more prone to failure than I want to depend on in a potentially hazardous situation.
tweetle_beetle 5y ago
The argument being made is not to do with maps. In blunt terms, it's that mapping apps have many possible failure points outside of your control, while traditional map reading and navigation skills only have one - you.
- arkitaip 5y ago
  People got lost using maps all the time because they were and are difficult to read.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Difficult how? Proper topo maps have a standard format and are easy to read. The harder part is figuring out where you are on the map, and what route to take.
    - brewdad 5y ago
      > The harder part is figuring out where you are on the map, and what route to take. Aye, there's the rub.
      - throwaway3neu94 5y ago
        Paper maps are also constantly outdated, can't record your track, and show way less extra points of interest. Maps also cost money and take weight and take time to ship or pick up, meaning in many groups at most one person will have one. Better hope you don't have to split the group. Everyone has their phone. Offline maps can be had for free, weigh nothing and you can download it on short notice. I also object to maps having no failure modes. They definitely wear out, or rip, or get stains. Some aren't waterproof. They are also terrible at night, even with flashlights (especially since most people will have lights with shitty CRI). And they can't zoom - so of you're farsighted, hope you don't lose your glasses...
quickthrower2 5y ago
You want to be carrying topographic maps and a compass if you are hiking in the mountains. You have to know how to use them. GPS is great but cannot be relied on. Batteries die.
rich_sasha 5y ago
My fundamental point is that mountaineering, or even hiking knowledge, is primarily contained off google: in paper maps, books, but mostly meatspace and experience, gained and shared. Is there now a generation that assumes all knowledge is googlable? And if there is an “app for it” then it is as good as it gets? I’m not blaming them, I was lucky enough to be taught about hiking (in this instance) by real people, no achievement of mine. More musing about how knowledge distribution is evolving.

ghaff 5y ago

Even OSM (which tends to be better than Google Maps for hiking trails) has far from 100% coverage for hiking trails. (Though I'm guessing it's likely pretty good for a popular destination.) It still doesn't tell you anything more about the route--for which a map by itself is probably not enough. It's also more prone to failure than I want to depend on in a potentially hazardous situation.

tweetle_beetle 5y ago

The argument being made is not to do with maps. In blunt terms, it's that mapping apps have many possible failure points outside of your control, while traditional map reading and navigation skills only have one - you.

arkitaip 5y ago
People got lost using maps all the time because they were and are difficult to read.
- nradov 5y ago
  Difficult how? Proper topo maps have a standard format and are easy to read. The harder part is figuring out where you are on the map, and what route to take.
  - brewdad 5y ago
    > The harder part is figuring out where you are on the map, and what route to take. Aye, there's the rub.
    - throwaway3neu94 5y ago
      Paper maps are also constantly outdated, can't record your track, and show way less extra points of interest. Maps also cost money and take weight and take time to ship or pick up, meaning in many groups at most one person will have one. Better hope you don't have to split the group. Everyone has their phone. Offline maps can be had for free, weigh nothing and you can download it on short notice. I also object to maps having no failure modes. They definitely wear out, or rip, or get stains. Some aren't waterproof. They are also terrible at night, even with flashlights (especially since most people will have lights with shitty CRI). And they can't zoom - so of you're farsighted, hope you don't lose your glasses...

quickthrower2 5y ago

You want to be carrying topographic maps and a compass if you are hiking in the mountains. You have to know how to use them. GPS is great but cannot be relied on. Batteries die.

rich_sasha 5y ago

My fundamental point is that mountaineering, or even hiking knowledge, is primarily contained off google: in paper maps, books, but mostly meatspace and experience, gained and shared. Is there now a generation that assumes all knowledge is googlable? And if there is an “app for it” then it is as good as it gets? I’m not blaming them, I was lucky enough to be taught about hiking (in this instance) by real people, no achievement of mine. More musing about how knowledge distribution is evolving.