4 ms·

How stupid can people be that a device that can store vast amounts of information, be updated constantly, can track your exact movements and contact people inst

How stupid can people be that a device that can store vast amounts of information, be updated constantly, can track your exact movements and contact people instantly across the world not be more useful than some ink printed on a fragile piece of paper. The fact that a bit of paper easily destroyed by some water (not exactly unknown conditions for Scotland) is considered essential should be a source of embarassment for the tech industry, not smugness.

ghaff 5y ago
I mean this in the nicest possible way but you don't know what you're talking about. Do I use GPS? Of course I do. But maps on tyvek or protected by plastic are not exactly fragile. Batteries are always going to be an issue especially in cold conditions and I wouldn't want to put myself in a situation where a device problem left me in a really bad place.
- daleharvey 5y ago
  You have me there, it's not like I am Scottish and spend most of my time navigating the Scottish outdoors or anything ...
  - ghaff 5y ago
    If you know an area and don't even really need a map, it's not really a big deal. I usually carry one by habit when I hike trails I know well but I often don't bother with a compass. But unfamiliar areas where getting lost is a real possibility? No I don't want to abdicate full responsibility for my safety to a phone.
    - daleharvey 5y ago
      If you are doing it in the winter then sure, in the summer you don't even need a phone the route is very clear. My comment wasnt particularly that paper backups werent the best option in some circumstances, it was more against the general smugness / gatekeeping nature thats fairly common in outdoors circles, and that really unless have to worry about it being cold enough to effect your battery, really a phone should be a better option for most people and the fact it cant be considered reliable is an indictment on this industry as most of the problems (cold batteries aside) are easily solved (offline, detailed maps, battery issues), the only problem is solving them doesnt sell ads
      - ghaff 5y ago
        I was mostly just reacting to suggestions that paper maps are unnecessary. I actually agree that you don't always have to be fully prepared against any possible eventuality, however unlikely. And that carrying too much stuff can be a hazard on its own. I've walked hundreds of miles in England and I've always carried a map with me but I've almost always used the OS app and the paper was mostly for planning and getting a bigger view. I am suspicious of electronics. This just seems like a case where, given the easy backup, why not use it when it might matter.
      - staticman2 5y ago
        The problem isn't ads, it's that designing a phone for hiking has tradeoffs that make it less appealing to consumers when you are not hiking.
azinman2 5y ago
Because a human being had to put that ink to paper, and presumably, did so in an educated way. Automated machines are fallible, especially when the same algorithm might apply to walking directions in the streets of NYC, and certainly doesn't benefit from human scrutiny for every possible route it might suggest.
- daleharvey 5y ago
  You can take the maps printed on paper ... and "print" them on a screen!
  - azinman2 5y ago
    We're talking about Google Maps here. Not some PDF you downloaded.
    - daleharvey 5y ago
      The parent and I were talking about the general idea of device vs paper and not about specific map implementations.
gambiting 5y ago
>>The fact that a bit of paper easily destroyed by some water You do know most outdoor maps are laminated, right? The ones you'd take with you on such a journey anyway. A phone can break in a dozen different ways, or just simply run out of charge. Slightly harder with a paper map.
- genewitch 5y ago
  I think the entire comment was facetious.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    I really hope so :-)
- daleharvey 5y ago
  The OS paper maps are still very popular these days but have managed to destroy both the paper and weatherproof ones over my time. Also very easy to lose a map, the nice thing about phones is everyone else you are with is carrying one, less so with maps. The only real way you are going to get everyone in a groups phone breaking is if you are somewhere extremely cold.
notatoad 5y ago
Road maps have never contained the hiking route up Ben Nevis. If you try to get hiking directions off a road map, you're going to have a bad time. this fact is not unique to digital maps.
- daleharvey 5y ago
  The comment I was replying to and point I was making wasnt about the implementation of individual maps. It was a general point about using a device to navigate vs paper maps. (Ordnance survey maps are available for your phone)
  - notatoad 5y ago
    I'm confused about the point you're trying to make then. As you say, hiking maps are available for your phone. You can use them if you want. So how exactly is this a failure of technology?
    - daleharvey 5y ago
      A lot of people cannot, or dont feel like they can rely on a phone: Various functions including maps will die if your phone goes offline, your phone will chew through your battery even in situations where you really need it for one purpose, general purpose apps like google maps will work well enough until they put you to the top of a mountain without cell reception. These are all fairly easily solvable UX problems, users with enough knowledge can solve them but that to me is still a failure of technology.

ghaff 5y ago

I mean this in the nicest possible way but you don't know what you're talking about. Do I use GPS? Of course I do. But maps on tyvek or protected by plastic are not exactly fragile. Batteries are always going to be an issue especially in cold conditions and I wouldn't want to put myself in a situation where a device problem left me in a really bad place.

daleharvey 5y ago
You have me there, it's not like I am Scottish and spend most of my time navigating the Scottish outdoors or anything ...
- ghaff 5y ago
  If you know an area and don't even really need a map, it's not really a big deal. I usually carry one by habit when I hike trails I know well but I often don't bother with a compass. But unfamiliar areas where getting lost is a real possibility? No I don't want to abdicate full responsibility for my safety to a phone.
  - daleharvey 5y ago
    If you are doing it in the winter then sure, in the summer you don't even need a phone the route is very clear. My comment wasnt particularly that paper backups werent the best option in some circumstances, it was more against the general smugness / gatekeeping nature thats fairly common in outdoors circles, and that really unless have to worry about it being cold enough to effect your battery, really a phone should be a better option for most people and the fact it cant be considered reliable is an indictment on this industry as most of the problems (cold batteries aside) are easily solved (offline, detailed maps, battery issues), the only problem is solving them doesnt sell ads
    - ghaff 5y ago
      I was mostly just reacting to suggestions that paper maps are unnecessary. I actually agree that you don't always have to be fully prepared against any possible eventuality, however unlikely. And that carrying too much stuff can be a hazard on its own. I've walked hundreds of miles in England and I've always carried a map with me but I've almost always used the OS app and the paper was mostly for planning and getting a bigger view. I am suspicious of electronics. This just seems like a case where, given the easy backup, why not use it when it might matter.
    - staticman2 5y ago
      The problem isn't ads, it's that designing a phone for hiking has tradeoffs that make it less appealing to consumers when you are not hiking.

azinman2 5y ago

Because a human being had to put that ink to paper, and presumably, did so in an educated way. Automated machines are fallible, especially when the same algorithm might apply to walking directions in the streets of NYC, and certainly doesn't benefit from human scrutiny for every possible route it might suggest.

daleharvey 5y ago
You can take the maps printed on paper ... and "print" them on a screen!
- azinman2 5y ago
  We're talking about Google Maps here. Not some PDF you downloaded.
  - daleharvey 5y ago
    The parent and I were talking about the general idea of device vs paper and not about specific map implementations.

gambiting 5y ago

>>The fact that a bit of paper easily destroyed by some water You do know most outdoor maps are laminated, right? The ones you'd take with you on such a journey anyway. A phone can break in a dozen different ways, or just simply run out of charge. Slightly harder with a paper map.

genewitch 5y ago
I think the entire comment was facetious.
- gambiting 5y ago
  I really hope so :-)
daleharvey 5y ago
The OS paper maps are still very popular these days but have managed to destroy both the paper and weatherproof ones over my time. Also very easy to lose a map, the nice thing about phones is everyone else you are with is carrying one, less so with maps. The only real way you are going to get everyone in a groups phone breaking is if you are somewhere extremely cold.

notatoad 5y ago

Road maps have never contained the hiking route up Ben Nevis. If you try to get hiking directions off a road map, you're going to have a bad time. this fact is not unique to digital maps.

daleharvey 5y ago
The comment I was replying to and point I was making wasnt about the implementation of individual maps. It was a general point about using a device to navigate vs paper maps. (Ordnance survey maps are available for your phone)
- notatoad 5y ago
  I'm confused about the point you're trying to make then. As you say, hiking maps are available for your phone. You can use them if you want. So how exactly is this a failure of technology?
  - daleharvey 5y ago
    A lot of people cannot, or dont feel like they can rely on a phone: Various functions including maps will die if your phone goes offline, your phone will chew through your battery even in situations where you really need it for one purpose, general purpose apps like google maps will work well enough until they put you to the top of a mountain without cell reception. These are all fairly easily solvable UX problems, users with enough knowledge can solve them but that to me is still a failure of technology.