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'Havana syndrome'-like mystery illness affects Vienna US diplomats
- readflaggedcomm 5y ago>Cases of the condition have been reported elsewhere in the world, but US officials say the numbers in Vienna are greater than in any other city apart from Havana. Hadn't heard it was this wide-spread. What are the chances their own security systems are at fault? If not, then at this scale couldn't thermal imaging spot something?
- betwixthewires 5y agoMy guess would be it is their own security. "Elsewhere in the world" also includes New York City.
- HWR_14 5y agoThermal imaging wouldn't detect microwaves. They are at very different parts of the spectrum.
- readflaggedcomm 5y agoIt might spot a beam hitting an absorbing surface, like skin.
- HWR_14 5y agoTrue, since the absorbing surface turns it into heat. If I recall correctly, the issue with microwaves is that they primarily absorb below the skin's surface.
- formerly_proven 5y agoEM radiation in the microwave range is super-easy to monitor using bog-standard spectrum analyzers.
- radicaldreamer 5y agoVienna is a historical hotspot for North Korean overseas operations, but that connection would be seemingly too obvious (Havana also has a DPRK embassy)…
- kome 5y agoDPRK embassies are everywhere in Europe (germany, italy, spain, romania, sweden, etc), so what?
- jlmorton 5y agoWhen you have syndromes with a huge number of symptoms, including extremely common conditions, and the symptoms are largely untestable, relying on patient self-reporting, then you're going to catch a lot of people with these symptoms. This is the exact same thing with Long Covid, or Gulf War Syndrome. The most interesting thing about Havana Syndrome is that it apparently only affects English-speaking diplomats in American and Canadian embassies. This is probably because they're familiar with the syndrome from news reports.
- SCAQTony 5y agoLong Covid is demonstrably provable with scans, O2-saturation, blood pressure and other diagnostic checks. https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n853/rr-2 https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n853/rr-2
- krona 5y agoFrom your BMJ reference: The term long covid embraces a wide spectrum of organ involvement, with no clear evidence yet to help inform efficient diagnostic pathways or specific treatments or to indicate probable prognosis.
- CRConrad 5y agoThat still doesn't mean it lacks concrete objectively measurable symptoms.
- SCAQTony 5y agoMy mileage varies.
- SCAQTony 5y ago"...In this cohort study including 100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 identified from a COVID-19 test center, cardiac magnetic resonance imaging revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), which was independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis....." https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...
- christkv 5y agoIf this is an attack what’s the point of it. It’s not like it has any useful effects on anything either politically or militarily.
- 2bitencryption 5y ago> what's the point of it the point is probably how every US diplomat around the globe probably goes to sleep every night thinking "I hope I wake up tomorrow with without permanent brain damage"
- sigg3 5y agoAre there any documented cases of permanent brain damage from these "attacks"?
- iends 5y agoYes, that’s literally what the article is about.
- boomboomsubban 5y agoThe news stories alone accomplish that, no need to attack anyone/anyone else.
- phendrenad2 5y agoYou must not read the news much, stories don't stick around long. Something that happened last week might as well not exist.
- boomboomsubban 5y agoPeople don't need to watch Jaws every day to still be afraid of sharks.
- chrisseaton 5y agoNot sure if you're being sarcastic, but the new stories exist because of the attacks. If they didn't do the attack... there wouldn't be any news stories, would there?
- mrtksn 5y agoSo it is happening to US diplomats on two unrelated locations, which indicates that the common element is the US. What if it's as a result of a US spy-craft instrument/substance side effect that potentially was not disclosed to the diplomats who suffer?
- guerrilla 5y agoWhat if they're jusg English speakers who saw the news and got food poisning (or who knows what)... Why is this such fertile ground for conspiracy theories? Is there some kind of assumption diplomats and spies never get sick with unidentied diseases like the rest of us?
- mrtksn 5y agoConspiracy theories are a lot fun when not affecting public behaviour badly(That's why we have huge number of literature and films around conspiracies). Therefore it's intriguing to speculate on a mystery. Oh and these days everyone is an English speaker, at least most diplomats are. Whatever the US ones read, the Spanish, the French, the Italians, the Bulgarians, the Russians, the Brazilians read it too.
- guerrilla 5y ago> Conspiracy theories are a lot fun when not affecting public behaviour badly(That's why we have huge number of literature and films around conspiracies). Therefore it's intriguing to speculate on a mystery. This is equivocation. One can enjoy fictional conspiracies without becoming a conspiracy theorist. > Whatever the US ones read, the Spanish, the French, the Italians, the Bulgarians, the Russians, the Brazilians read it too. I guess if you've never been to those countries you could think that, but no, even with 39% of French speaking some English, they still mostly read their own news and not American news, unlike Americans.
- jhugo 5y agothe sentence you quoted refers to diplomats, who likely have a somewhat more international news palate than the average citizen
- raylad 5y agoHow about issuing every employee with a monitor that detects microwave radiation (since that's what they're saying they think it is)?
- phendrenad2 5y agoI can see it now, all US diplomats will have helmets on with antennae for detecting various wavelengths.
- ineedasername 5y agoMade from rolls of tinfoil that contractors sell to embassies for $1200/25sqft roll
- jareklupinski 5y agosimilar to how every employee working near nuclear radiation is issued a dosimeter
- rolltopdesk 5y agoIs it technically difficult to detect abnormal microwave energy in this kind of situation? I know you can get a microwave oven leak detector for about thirty dollars.
- amelius 5y agoThese detectors might very well be a scam targeted at people who believe any kind of radiation is bad for them.
- MrYellowP 5y agoBecause this story is related to Vienna and your post fits ... Let me tell you about the viennese hotdog stand owner who had three microwaves running at all time, to heat food quickly. Open. Behind his back. There was a glass in between the customers and him, shielded, but the pressure of the microwaves (heat, i guess?) could be felt through the opening, where he hands out the food. Of course it killed him eventually.
- user-the-name 5y agoPretty sure that is entirely an urban legend.
- ineedasername 5y agoI don't know, I can easily believe that there are hot dog vendors in Vienna. Probably even one that has a silly name for English-speaking tourists like "Wurst Hotdogs!"
- MrYellowP 5y agoNo, it isn't, because I was there. My above post was clearly written in a way that makes it obvious to see that I was there. I've felt it on my own skin.
- amelius 5y agoI think the microwave is designed so that the radiation resonates in a cavity. Once you open the cavity, the waves spread in all directions and the energy drops off very quickly.
- alpineidyll3 5y agoWhy the hell aren't they just shielding the embassies against microwave radiation already? If I was a diplomat I would be walking around with a tinfoil hat and underwear, and I'd be quite furious about the lack of defense.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- boomboomsubban 5y agoEvery time I see the NAS study mentioned I feel compelled to mention it said that while a psychogenic cause was entirely possible, as they never performed psychiatric evaluations they could not conclude that was the cause. How they then conclude that a microwave attack is the most plausible is beyond me.
- rozab 5y agoHow could psychiatric evaluations conclude that anyway? There is no test for somatic symptom disorder, the diagnostic criteria are just that the symptoms are not adequately explained by physical causes. It often happens in people who are completely healthy mentally.
- tennis74 5y agoThe only logical conclusion is that it is related to some secret anti spy device installed at US embassies around the world and not some outside disturbance covering Vienne to Havana?
- amelius 5y agoAnother logical conclusion could be that we only hear of abnormal medical issues if they happen to diplomats. I mean, if this happened to a random Joe, would we hear about it?
- adenozine 5y agoI was just thinking that. If we all read headlines for each time someone at the local Starbucks got sick, we'd avoid the coffee like the plague! There's a huge bias I think a lot of people don't account for, as well as the fact that quite a few diplomats are moving around all the time, they're ALL bound to get sick eventually. Rubbing shoulders with 100+ countries every week, it's basically inevitable.
- tommiegannert 5y agoIt sounds similar to the occasional "cell phone radiation" and "electromagnetic hypersensitivity" news article. What's interesting is that those stories always include a suspected cause. With the embassy story, it seems we hear a lot about the symptoms.
- HWR_14 5y agoOr that it's a secret weapon used on US diplomats by [insert foreign power]. Or that it's a result of radiation given off by some cryptogear that's classified. Or that it's a result of a global phenomenon and is only being detected in Vienna because they were alert to it after noticing it in Havana. Or that it's a contagious but slow acting disease spreading through the US diplomatic corps from some Typhoid Mary as they get redeployed.
- ineedasername 5y ago
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y agoI had a theory about this illness. I dance a bit of salsa, and sometimes there were cuban DJs at the festivals I visited. They all always tended to do one thing with their sound setup: they overamplified the higher part of the audio spectrum, producing a hissing distortion of sound. It had an effect on me very similar on what is described about Havana embassy: headache and slight nausea. I tried talking to those DJs about it, and they told me that that's the way they like it. So I think that maybe you'd sickness is explained by cubans listening to their music the way they like it. But that was before Vienna. Maybe there was a salsa festival recently?
- onetimemanytime 5y agoI have another theory: maybe they're using a certain tech to steal classified info remotely and we're seeing the side effects. I seriously doubt that Russians will hurt US "diplomats" on purpose....payback and all.
- mrtksn 5y agoThat's a bit of stretch, I think. I got my Tinnitus after my Cuba vacation too and I've seen some salsa practices when I was there however none of those had a loud music. I'm not into DJs and my only attempt to trying to get into a venue with a DJ ended with a frustration after giving up waiting in the lane to get into the Cave club in Trinidad. Also, later I found out that my tinnitus is due to my unhealthy sitting position when using a copmuter that apparently was not so good on my neck.
- bjourne 5y ago> The syndrome is unexplained, but US scientists say it is most probably caused by directed microwave radiation. A lot of scientists, American and non-American alike, doubted the microwave weapon theory. > The US accused Cuba of carrying out "sonic attacks", which it strongly denied, and the incident led to increased tension between the two nations. The sound of the "sonic attacks" turned out to be the sound of indigenous Cuban crickets. Oops! https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/recording-of-sonic-attack-in-cuba-was-crickets--scientists-65292 https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/recording-of-soni... You can listen to the sound here: https://apnews.com/article/health-north-america-ap-top-news-cuba-health-mystery-international-news-88bb914f8b284088bce48e54f6736d84 https://apnews.com/article/health-north-america-ap-top-news-... > A 2019 US academic study found "brain abnormalities" in the diplomats who had fallen ill, but Cuba dismissed the report. As did a lot of academics: "The latest brain scans may provide fresh evidence of some injury, but the study was not without critics and some researchers have questioned whether there was any kind of attack at all. “Finding evidence of brain change doesn’t provide evidence of brain injury or damage,” said Dr. Jon Stone, a professor of neurology at the Centre for Clinical Brain Sciences at the University of Edinburgh, who was not involved in the study. Dr. Sergio Della Sala, a professor of human cognitive neuroscience also at the University of Edinburgh, in an email called the study “half baked.” He noted that 12 of the affected workers who had a history of concussion prior to going to Cuba were included in the analyzes. “In comparison, none of the controls declared previous brain injury. This in itself could cause statistical group differences,” Della Sala said." https://nationalpost.com/news/world/scans-show-changes-to-brains-of-injured-havana-u-s-embassy-workers https://nationalpost.com/news/world/scans-show-changes-to-br... In his commentary Della Sala writes: "The JAMA article represents a case of poor neuropsychology; clinically inappropriate and methodologically improper." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S001094521830087X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00109...
- supergirl 5y agoUS embassies are basically CIA labs with all kinds of spying gadgets blasting EM waves. an intern probably wanted to hear better what the Russian diplomats across the street are saying and set the scanner to beast mode
- CRConrad 5y agoMaybe it's the ham radio jamming that causes it? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857290
- alexpc201 5y agoThis. My parents were amateur ham radio operators. I got tinnitus and always blamed the linear amplifiers they used on the room next to my bedroom.
- aaron695 5y agoThis is hysteria. Week one, years ago for this story, physicists said this is not possible, still stands since physics is still the same - BBC - "The syndrome is unexplained, but US scientists say it is most probably caused by directed microwave radiation." If you need a lesson, travel and work overseas is hard mentally. Totally manageable, and the reward is amazing. But look after yourself, just don't underestimate it. Other lesson, diplomats are nothing special. Not especially smart. Normally just willing to be inquisitive about a country and stay inquisitive. They too get run down. And you are being played by the state department here, they know it's hysteria, they have seen it before, but there is no reason for them to correct it internally or externally. It fits with cold war lite with Russia.
- throwaway88974 5y agoThis is an attempt to listen in on the "inner voice" in your head. This has been demonstrated to me, however crazy this might sound. When targeted, you experience this cicada like sound (or metallic sound) filling your head.
- totalZero 5y agoI see that you have commented about this a couple of times. Please say more; I am interested to know your thoughts and experiences on the subject. Is it possible to successfully observe a person's thoughts from outside of his or her body?