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In Europe a Master's degree is a necessity for the (better) starter jobs in industry, but usually in the more common (traditional) fields like economics, law, e

In Europe a Master's degree is a necessity for the (better) starter jobs in industry, but usually in the more common (traditional) fields like economics, law, engineering, or science.

chrisseaton 5y ago
But in these cases aren't undergraduate degrees normally three years, and a master's degree one? So that's four years total, which is what Americans do anyway. An American undergraduate plus masters is six years, which is absolutely insane. Let alone their PhDs, which mean you could easily end up 29 before you graduate. I had a friend in Europe who finished their PhD with top-tier publications in two years - much less mucking around than in the US.
- docdeek 5y ago
  Europe is generally 3 for Bachelors + 2 for Masters.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    And in some countries it's more common to do 5 years straight to Masters (for example it was the system in Poland when I graduated but it became more popular to do 3+2 since then). At any rate - I wouldn't say it's a scam in countries with free university education. It's actually cheap to teach people and it improves the society. Win-win. University system in US is a scam for the same reason that healthcare system in US is a scam - because it has bad incentives and no taxpayers control over them.
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      > for example it was the system in Poland when I graduated but it became more popular to do 3+2 since then In France, there is the "3+2" system, but that's just on paper. Basically, there are two types of bachelor's: a practical one that's supposed to be the last in line, and another, more "theoretical" one that's supposed to be followed with a Master's. Students have to choose between the two fairly early, so if your goal is a Master's, you'll take the bachelor that's supposed to be followed by the Master. You do get a piece of paper at the three-year mark saying you've got a Bachelor's, but that's unusable if you want to get a job (as in no-one will hire you). You technically can go to a Master's after the practical one, but there are extra steps, and it's not as easy.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  The continent is generally 3+2. In the UK it's generally 3 + 1. Eg I got a Master's 4 years after high school in the UK.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > But in these cases aren't undergraduate degrees normally three years, and a master's degree one? It's usually three years + two years. At least in France there used to be a degree at four years, before the Master's (at five) but I don't think that exists anymore since they introduced the EU-wide new system (Bachelor's — Master's — PhD).
- kitsune_ 5y ago
  I think academically the first year of an US undergraduate degree is probably more on the level of the last year of a European "high school" (lycee, gymnasium etc).
- jltsiren 5y ago
  The typical structure is 3 years for the bachelor's degree and 2 years for the master's degree. In many countries, master's is the primary undergraduate degree, while bachelor's is considered a glorified dropout. American undergraduate degrees often have plenty of classes unrelated to the major/minor subjects, while European degrees tend to be more focused. In some countries, those breadth requirements are considered a part of secondary education. While an American nominally starts a four-year degree at 18, a European may start a three-year degree at 19. As for PhDs, they were traditionally considered more like certifications than degrees. You could graduate quickly if you managed to finish your thesis, but it was far more common to continue working on it well into your 30s. This has changed in the past decade or two, as universities started favoring short "American-style" PhDs, with the ideal to graduate before 30. (The British with their short PhDs were always an exception to this.)
nickfromseattle 5y ago
Almost every European I have met through work, and through my European friends have master degrees. Mostly in softer fields like marketing and (English) language. They have all communicated the same thing - it's a necessity for starter jobs.
ithinkso 5y ago
I think that was the case when Universities offered only 5year Master's degree programs but it changed after the Bologna process and you have Bachelor's 3years (3.5 for engineering) + 2years (1.5 eng) Master's. Bachelor's degree is often enough for a starter job in industry and I don't think it matters that much if it's Master's or Bachelor's even later in your career (at least in software dev), PhD is definitely regarded much higher

In Europe a Master's degree is a necessity for the (better) starter jobs in industry, but usually in the more common (traditional) fields like economics, law, engineering, or science.

chrisseaton 5y ago

But in these cases aren't undergraduate degrees normally three years, and a master's degree one? So that's four years total, which is what Americans do anyway. An American undergraduate plus masters is six years, which is absolutely insane. Let alone their PhDs, which mean you could easily end up 29 before you graduate. I had a friend in Europe who finished their PhD with top-tier publications in two years - much less mucking around than in the US.

docdeek 5y ago
Europe is generally 3 for Bachelors + 2 for Masters.
- ajuc 5y ago
  And in some countries it's more common to do 5 years straight to Masters (for example it was the system in Poland when I graduated but it became more popular to do 3+2 since then). At any rate - I wouldn't say it's a scam in countries with free university education. It's actually cheap to teach people and it improves the society. Win-win. University system in US is a scam for the same reason that healthcare system in US is a scam - because it has bad incentives and no taxpayers control over them.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    > for example it was the system in Poland when I graduated but it became more popular to do 3+2 since then In France, there is the "3+2" system, but that's just on paper. Basically, there are two types of bachelor's: a practical one that's supposed to be the last in line, and another, more "theoretical" one that's supposed to be followed with a Master's. Students have to choose between the two fairly early, so if your goal is a Master's, you'll take the bachelor that's supposed to be followed by the Master. You do get a piece of paper at the three-year mark saying you've got a Bachelor's, but that's unusable if you want to get a job (as in no-one will hire you). You technically can go to a Master's after the practical one, but there are extra steps, and it's not as easy.
lordnacho 5y ago
The continent is generally 3+2. In the UK it's generally 3 + 1. Eg I got a Master's 4 years after high school in the UK.
vladvasiliu 5y ago
> But in these cases aren't undergraduate degrees normally three years, and a master's degree one? It's usually three years + two years. At least in France there used to be a degree at four years, before the Master's (at five) but I don't think that exists anymore since they introduced the EU-wide new system (Bachelor's — Master's — PhD).
kitsune_ 5y ago
I think academically the first year of an US undergraduate degree is probably more on the level of the last year of a European "high school" (lycee, gymnasium etc).
jltsiren 5y ago
The typical structure is 3 years for the bachelor's degree and 2 years for the master's degree. In many countries, master's is the primary undergraduate degree, while bachelor's is considered a glorified dropout. American undergraduate degrees often have plenty of classes unrelated to the major/minor subjects, while European degrees tend to be more focused. In some countries, those breadth requirements are considered a part of secondary education. While an American nominally starts a four-year degree at 18, a European may start a three-year degree at 19. As for PhDs, they were traditionally considered more like certifications than degrees. You could graduate quickly if you managed to finish your thesis, but it was far more common to continue working on it well into your 30s. This has changed in the past decade or two, as universities started favoring short "American-style" PhDs, with the ideal to graduate before 30. (The British with their short PhDs were always an exception to this.)

nickfromseattle 5y ago

Almost every European I have met through work, and through my European friends have master degrees. Mostly in softer fields like marketing and (English) language. They have all communicated the same thing - it's a necessity for starter jobs.

ithinkso 5y ago

I think that was the case when Universities offered only 5year Master's degree programs but it changed after the Bologna process and you have Bachelor's 3years (3.5 for engineering) + 2years (1.5 eng) Master's. Bachelor's degree is often enough for a starter job in industry and I don't think it matters that much if it's Master's or Bachelor's even later in your career (at least in software dev), PhD is definitely regarded much higher