5 ms·

Just goes to show that the idea of climate change affecting everywhere equally (and thus meekly) is the biggest blind spot of climate change deniers. More than

by lhorie 5y ago

Just goes to show that the idea of climate change affecting everywhere equally (and thus meekly) is the biggest blind spot of climate change deniers. More than ever, I keep reading about how hyperlocal water systems are, and IMHO it shouldn't come as a surprise anymore that the way we're going to experience the effects of climate change is in the form of more extreme versions of the things each region already had before (be it droughts, rain, heat waves or cold waves)

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
I worry that this framing tends to exempt the authorities from responsibility. The article talks a lot about the raw effect of the flooding, a lot about high-level climate goals, and barely at all about how governments should tackle the problems they're facing today. It does quote a professor who says the tragedy "should have been avoided" because "the warnings were not taken seriously enough and preparations were inadequate", but shouldn't the biggest question here be how they were inadequate and which additional preparations ought to have happened? Surely there's gotta be action items beyond just renewing our commitment to reducing emissions.
- lhorie 5y ago
  Yeah, I take issue with the idea that carbon offsets alone will magically fix everything. In Toronto, there was a mandate a few years ago for all houses to disconnect downspouts from the sewer system (so that rainwater is absorbed into the ground of the sprawling suburbs instead of overloading the city plumbing system. They've also been building gigantic water reservoirs by the lake in anticipation of increased pressure in said plumbing systems. I think at this point, it sounds like the people saying we're already too late are not really being alarmist, and that we are going to need to pay that price in the form of lots of infrastructure projects to deal with things like extreme floods. The scary thing IMHO is Germany clearly invested in such infrastructure[0] and yet here we are. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LseK5gp66u8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LseK5gp66u8
  - loopz 5y ago
    We are likely to have to tackle both climate change (warming), and mitigation. It's just that nobody has the authority and resources for it, before calamity strikes.
    - lhorie 5y ago
      Sorry, I didn't mean to sound defeatist, I meant "we're too late" in the sense that the damages are already here, so now we're not merely talking about just the cost of prevention anymore, but also about the cost of a cure on top of it.
      - loopz 5y ago
        Yeah, I modified my response. I think we both agree measures will be reactive in regards extremes.
inglor_cz 5y ago
It also shows that we have paved over too much soil. Cities hardly have any ability to soak up extra water. Whenever I walk outside in a stronger rain and I see the torrents of water gushing over the hard surfaces directly to the closest gutter, I can't help but think that our ancestors would judge us pretty harshly for treating rainwater like nuisance and not a resource to manage wisely. It wouldn't have helped in this case, though. No clever water retention system can cope with such a downpour. Maaaaybe it could mitigate the worst results.
- blablabla123 5y ago
  Not sure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_basin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_basin These seem to be feasible though. > I can't help but think that our ancestors would judge us pretty harshly for treating rainwater like nuisance and not a resource to manage wisely. Also considering that many cities are like wind channels...
- felixfbecker 5y ago
  Less paving is not changing a thing when your village is in a valley downstream of a dam that overflows from massive rain over the mountains.
ceilingcorner 5y ago
The association of these floods purely with climate change seems like a stretch to me. Storms cause floods all the time and once in a century is pretty standard. Most of these precede industrialization and were caused by storms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floods_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floods_in_Europe
- wavesounds 5y ago
  Nobody is arguing its "purely" caused by climate change but it seems pretty clear that climate change is making all of these things happen more frequently and intensely than they used to.
  - ceilingcorner 5y ago
    > Nobody is arguing its "purely" caused by climate change The article definitely takes that position, at least implicitly. Half of the text is about climate change.
    - mikeg8 5y ago
      > Many factors contribute to flooding, but a warming atmosphere caused by climate change makes extreme rainfall more likely. Do you see anything wrong with that statement? Seems pretty accurate to me...
      - ceilingcorner 5y ago
        Yes, that single sentence is definitely accurate. The rest of the article assumes that it's unquestionably true.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    Do you have the numbers to back that up?
    - lhorie 5y ago
lumberingjack 5y ago
Natural History repeatedly shows us that the earth's climate can change the snap of a finger even without the assistance of humans. Should we blame the dinosaurs for an asteroid strike maybe they weren't doing enough.

by lhorie 5y ago

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago

I worry that this framing tends to exempt the authorities from responsibility. The article talks a lot about the raw effect of the flooding, a lot about high-level climate goals, and barely at all about how governments should tackle the problems they're facing today. It does quote a professor who says the tragedy "should have been avoided" because "the warnings were not taken seriously enough and preparations were inadequate", but shouldn't the biggest question here be how they were inadequate and which additional preparations ought to have happened? Surely there's gotta be action items beyond just renewing our commitment to reducing emissions.

lhorie 5y ago
Yeah, I take issue with the idea that carbon offsets alone will magically fix everything. In Toronto, there was a mandate a few years ago for all houses to disconnect downspouts from the sewer system (so that rainwater is absorbed into the ground of the sprawling suburbs instead of overloading the city plumbing system. They've also been building gigantic water reservoirs by the lake in anticipation of increased pressure in said plumbing systems. I think at this point, it sounds like the people saying we're already too late are not really being alarmist, and that we are going to need to pay that price in the form of lots of infrastructure projects to deal with things like extreme floods. The scary thing IMHO is Germany clearly invested in such infrastructure[0] and yet here we are. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LseK5gp66u8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LseK5gp66u8
- loopz 5y ago
  We are likely to have to tackle both climate change (warming), and mitigation. It's just that nobody has the authority and resources for it, before calamity strikes.
  - lhorie 5y ago
    Sorry, I didn't mean to sound defeatist, I meant "we're too late" in the sense that the damages are already here, so now we're not merely talking about just the cost of prevention anymore, but also about the cost of a cure on top of it.
    - loopz 5y ago
      Yeah, I modified my response. I think we both agree measures will be reactive in regards extremes.

inglor_cz 5y ago

It also shows that we have paved over too much soil. Cities hardly have any ability to soak up extra water. Whenever I walk outside in a stronger rain and I see the torrents of water gushing over the hard surfaces directly to the closest gutter, I can't help but think that our ancestors would judge us pretty harshly for treating rainwater like nuisance and not a resource to manage wisely. It wouldn't have helped in this case, though. No clever water retention system can cope with such a downpour. Maaaaybe it could mitigate the worst results.

blablabla123 5y ago
Not sure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_basin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_basin These seem to be feasible though. > I can't help but think that our ancestors would judge us pretty harshly for treating rainwater like nuisance and not a resource to manage wisely. Also considering that many cities are like wind channels...
felixfbecker 5y ago
Less paving is not changing a thing when your village is in a valley downstream of a dam that overflows from massive rain over the mountains.

ceilingcorner 5y ago

The association of these floods purely with climate change seems like a stretch to me. Storms cause floods all the time and once in a century is pretty standard. Most of these precede industrialization and were caused by storms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floods_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floods_in_Europe

wavesounds 5y ago
Nobody is arguing its "purely" caused by climate change but it seems pretty clear that climate change is making all of these things happen more frequently and intensely than they used to.
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  > Nobody is arguing its "purely" caused by climate change The article definitely takes that position, at least implicitly. Half of the text is about climate change.
  - mikeg8 5y ago
    > Many factors contribute to flooding, but a warming atmosphere caused by climate change makes extreme rainfall more likely. Do you see anything wrong with that statement? Seems pretty accurate to me...
    - ceilingcorner 5y ago
      Yes, that single sentence is definitely accurate. The rest of the article assumes that it's unquestionably true.
- the-dude 5y ago
  Do you have the numbers to back that up?
  - lhorie 5y ago

lumberingjack 5y ago

Natural History repeatedly shows us that the earth's climate can change the snap of a finger even without the assistance of humans. Should we blame the dinosaurs for an asteroid strike maybe they weren't doing enough.