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I also never understood this. It almost seems as if interrogations aren't for discovery of information but moreso "we have this lead and we're going to beat you

I also never understood this. It almost seems as if interrogations aren't for discovery of information but moreso "we have this lead and we're going to beat you into submission until you confirm our lead". You see it all the time with wrongful convictions and people signing confessions to crimes they didn't commit. I often wonder in these cases, do the officers, does law enforcement in this case really care who did it? If you bring someone in and interrogate them for 12+ hours and eventually they give you the answer you want to hear, do they never stop and ask themselves if the reason the person gave that answer is simply to make whatever they were doing stop? It seems like some of these investigations the point isn't to solve the crime, but to dot the I's and cross your T's. It seems like actual public safety is an afterthought as long as you "catch the criminal" on paper.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Interrogations are where they think they have a case against you but it's not good enough so they try and mislead you into making their jobs easier by giving them more evidence against you. If they're going through the effort of asking you questions in a controlled setting it's because they're trying to make sure anything they get is 100% unambiguously admissible in court.
- hansthehorse 5y ago
  There is a reason why they don't tell you "anything you say can and will be used either for or against you in a court of law".
Aerroon 5y ago
>does law enforcement in this case really care who did it? Law enforcement is an organization and all the baggage that usually comes with organizations still applies (eg maintaining the organization is a priority). LEOs are people that want to do people things - it's a job, not a way of life.
- Clubber 5y ago
  They also have a lot of political pressure to "solve crimes," which is literally a score board. I'm not excusing what they do in any way. It's a big mess of a system with too many incompetent bureaucratic careerists who seem to be short on ethics. I liken it as a game which didn't take hackers into account when designing the system, and the hackers are now rampant, ruining the game, except it isn't a game.
  - Simulacra 5y ago
    They also have a lot of political pressure to "solve crimes," which is literally a score board. While also being handicapped (budget cuts) and undermined (blamed) by politicians. On the one hand politicians demand lower crime, but at the same time denounce the police as the source of societal conflict.
    - weeblewobble 5y ago
      LAPD budget is about 15% of the total LA city budget. NYPD is about 11% of total NYC city budget
    - handrous 5y ago
      Maybe looks are deceiving, but officers and their vehicles sure look like they're having a whole lot more money spent on them than they were in, say, the 90s. They have more stuff, it all looks fairly new, and it all looks slicker, meaner, and more "apart" from normal folks, than it used to. I'm not talking about SWAT or armored cars or any of that stuff, either, but normal stuff that ordinary officers wear, carry, and drive.
      - Firehawke 5y ago
        This. The rules that allow them to confiscate and sell or use materials deemed to be "having been used in aid of committing a crime" means the funding is actually drastically higher than it once was. High enough for them to buy APCs for staging public relations events.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
I saw something before that said something like 80% of cops thought they had never arrested an innocent person. From that, it is likely that they believe these people are the criminals but the crafty villains won't admit it without being tricked. It's slightly less disturbing to think that the cops legitimately think they're doing a good job over the alternative of intentionally ignoring their responsibility. Still troubling to think they could be that deluded.
- Clubber 5y ago
  >It's slightly less disturbing to think that the cops legitimately think they're doing a good job over the alternative of intentionally ignoring their responsibility. Still troubling to think they could be that deluded. Stalin truly believed what he was doing was for the greater good of the USSR. It's extremely easy to justify bad deeds and fool yourself that the ends justify the means.
  - serenloss 5y ago
    I think one could make a strong argument that Stalin always knowingly acted in the best interest of Stalin.
  - mumblemumble 5y ago
    This seems like a valid, if hyperbolic, point to me. I think that one could make a plausible argument that one of the most basic implications of the principle of rule of law is that, at least where the police are concerned, the ends don't justify the means. Allowing them to behave otherwise isn't a slippery slope that leads to rampant abuse of power; it's a dead drop.
  - eldavido 5y ago
    Great illustration of why respect for individual rights is so important. There will always be some megalomaniac, whether dictator, president, cop, or some authority figure, who "knows best". Individual rights are the brakes. They're the lines we've agreed not to cross as a society, even when we're really sure we "know best". Example: property rights. No matter how sure you are that there's stolen property in the building, even law enforcement doesn't get to enter without a warrant. Individual rights limit what others can do.
briandear 5y ago
I completely agree. Some of the Jan 6 protestors have recently plead guilty to trespassing or similar petty nonsense after being held im solitary confinement for over 6 months in a DC jail. Solitary confinement for what ends up being a trespassing misdemeanor. Actual public safety is an afterthought. The point isn’t to solve a crime, but to punish enemies or to boost conviction rates.
- peteretep 5y ago
  > Actual public safety is an afterthought Are we talking about the people who participated in a violent insurrection against the US, or is this another group? If you want to have nice things (eg: a democracy) then you can’t be letting people who commit some mild treason off just because they’re dumbasses who got caught up in the moment. The next yahoo who decides they want to try and block the peaceful transfer of power needs to 100% understand that they will be prosecuted.
  - adolph 5y ago
    The parent comment says they "plead guilty to trespassing or similar petty nonsense" so I'd assume they weren't charged with "violent insurrection" and "mild treason."
    - peteretep 5y ago
      And they got Capone for tax evasion. Brushing off a conviction under 18 U.S. Code § 1752 -- which seems to be what people are being charged[0] with -- as "petty nonsense" is itself misleading, as it's the part of law that deals with "PRESIDENTIAL AND PRESIDENTIAL STAFF ASSASSINATION, KIDNAPPING, AND ASSAULT"[1] [0] https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-84 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-84
      - adolph 5y ago
        I’d agree that reality is likely somewhere between “petty trespassing” and “violent insurrection.”
Jenk 5y ago
The show on Netflix "Making a Murderer" has some scary examples of this. Not only of the lying during interrogation but of just how pervasive this mentality is. During an appeal to the 7th (iirc) District Court, the ADA's argument always came down to "What about Justice for the victim'a family?" like somehow it isn't even relevant anymore if they have the wrong guy or not - if they decided that the recently convicted was wrongfully convicted, it would be unfair to the victim's family to let him go, even if he isn't guilty.
IQunder130 5y ago
This does raise the question of how many cases are actually up in the air at all. One would think that given the IQ distribution of criminals a majority of cases involving arrests are quite open and shut, with suspects usually being caught either red handed or after not covering their tracks at all. A justice system optimized for public safety will err on the side of putting aggressive, anti-social individuals behind bars rather than making absolutely sure they really did do the thing most of them were caught doing. Public safety is therefore orthogonal or even somewhat opposed to the pursuit of truth.
notJim 5y ago
I think your baseline assumption about the US "justice system" should be that it is a horror show from top to bottom. If you expect any kind of rationality, fairness or common sense idea of justice, you will not find it.
rrauenza 5y ago
You might find these videos interesting as they analyze interrogations and the subject's behavior. Sometimes the lying is part of eliciting responses that can be analyzed. https://www.youtube.com/c/jcscriminalpsychology https://www.youtube.com/c/jcscriminalpsychology I'm not particular fond of the lying though and the asymmetry ... You can't lie to law enforcement but they can lie to you.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

Interrogations are where they think they have a case against you but it's not good enough so they try and mislead you into making their jobs easier by giving them more evidence against you. If they're going through the effort of asking you questions in a controlled setting it's because they're trying to make sure anything they get is 100% unambiguously admissible in court.

hansthehorse 5y ago
There is a reason why they don't tell you "anything you say can and will be used either for or against you in a court of law".

Aerroon 5y ago

>does law enforcement in this case really care who did it? Law enforcement is an organization and all the baggage that usually comes with organizations still applies (eg maintaining the organization is a priority). LEOs are people that want to do people things - it's a job, not a way of life.

Clubber 5y ago
They also have a lot of political pressure to "solve crimes," which is literally a score board. I'm not excusing what they do in any way. It's a big mess of a system with too many incompetent bureaucratic careerists who seem to be short on ethics. I liken it as a game which didn't take hackers into account when designing the system, and the hackers are now rampant, ruining the game, except it isn't a game.
- Simulacra 5y ago
  They also have a lot of political pressure to "solve crimes," which is literally a score board. While also being handicapped (budget cuts) and undermined (blamed) by politicians. On the one hand politicians demand lower crime, but at the same time denounce the police as the source of societal conflict.
  - weeblewobble 5y ago
    LAPD budget is about 15% of the total LA city budget. NYPD is about 11% of total NYC city budget
  - handrous 5y ago
    Maybe looks are deceiving, but officers and their vehicles sure look like they're having a whole lot more money spent on them than they were in, say, the 90s. They have more stuff, it all looks fairly new, and it all looks slicker, meaner, and more "apart" from normal folks, than it used to. I'm not talking about SWAT or armored cars or any of that stuff, either, but normal stuff that ordinary officers wear, carry, and drive.
    - Firehawke 5y ago
      This. The rules that allow them to confiscate and sell or use materials deemed to be "having been used in aid of committing a crime" means the funding is actually drastically higher than it once was. High enough for them to buy APCs for staging public relations events.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

I saw something before that said something like 80% of cops thought they had never arrested an innocent person. From that, it is likely that they believe these people are the criminals but the crafty villains won't admit it without being tricked. It's slightly less disturbing to think that the cops legitimately think they're doing a good job over the alternative of intentionally ignoring their responsibility. Still troubling to think they could be that deluded.

Clubber 5y ago
>It's slightly less disturbing to think that the cops legitimately think they're doing a good job over the alternative of intentionally ignoring their responsibility. Still troubling to think they could be that deluded. Stalin truly believed what he was doing was for the greater good of the USSR. It's extremely easy to justify bad deeds and fool yourself that the ends justify the means.
- serenloss 5y ago
  I think one could make a strong argument that Stalin always knowingly acted in the best interest of Stalin.
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  This seems like a valid, if hyperbolic, point to me. I think that one could make a plausible argument that one of the most basic implications of the principle of rule of law is that, at least where the police are concerned, the ends don't justify the means. Allowing them to behave otherwise isn't a slippery slope that leads to rampant abuse of power; it's a dead drop.
- eldavido 5y ago
  Great illustration of why respect for individual rights is so important. There will always be some megalomaniac, whether dictator, president, cop, or some authority figure, who "knows best". Individual rights are the brakes. They're the lines we've agreed not to cross as a society, even when we're really sure we "know best". Example: property rights. No matter how sure you are that there's stolen property in the building, even law enforcement doesn't get to enter without a warrant. Individual rights limit what others can do.

briandear 5y ago

I completely agree. Some of the Jan 6 protestors have recently plead guilty to trespassing or similar petty nonsense after being held im solitary confinement for over 6 months in a DC jail. Solitary confinement for what ends up being a trespassing misdemeanor. Actual public safety is an afterthought. The point isn’t to solve a crime, but to punish enemies or to boost conviction rates.

peteretep 5y ago
> Actual public safety is an afterthought Are we talking about the people who participated in a violent insurrection against the US, or is this another group? If you want to have nice things (eg: a democracy) then you can’t be letting people who commit some mild treason off just because they’re dumbasses who got caught up in the moment. The next yahoo who decides they want to try and block the peaceful transfer of power needs to 100% understand that they will be prosecuted.
- adolph 5y ago
  The parent comment says they "plead guilty to trespassing or similar petty nonsense" so I'd assume they weren't charged with "violent insurrection" and "mild treason."
  - peteretep 5y ago
    And they got Capone for tax evasion. Brushing off a conviction under 18 U.S. Code § 1752 -- which seems to be what people are being charged[0] with -- as "petty nonsense" is itself misleading, as it's the part of law that deals with "PRESIDENTIAL AND PRESIDENTIAL STAFF ASSASSINATION, KIDNAPPING, AND ASSAULT"[1] [0] https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-84 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-84
    - adolph 5y ago
      I’d agree that reality is likely somewhere between “petty trespassing” and “violent insurrection.”

Jenk 5y ago

The show on Netflix "Making a Murderer" has some scary examples of this. Not only of the lying during interrogation but of just how pervasive this mentality is. During an appeal to the 7th (iirc) District Court, the ADA's argument always came down to "What about Justice for the victim'a family?" like somehow it isn't even relevant anymore if they have the wrong guy or not - if they decided that the recently convicted was wrongfully convicted, it would be unfair to the victim's family to let him go, even if he isn't guilty.

IQunder130 5y ago

This does raise the question of how many cases are actually up in the air at all. One would think that given the IQ distribution of criminals a majority of cases involving arrests are quite open and shut, with suspects usually being caught either red handed or after not covering their tracks at all. A justice system optimized for public safety will err on the side of putting aggressive, anti-social individuals behind bars rather than making absolutely sure they really did do the thing most of them were caught doing. Public safety is therefore orthogonal or even somewhat opposed to the pursuit of truth.

notJim 5y ago

I think your baseline assumption about the US "justice system" should be that it is a horror show from top to bottom. If you expect any kind of rationality, fairness or common sense idea of justice, you will not find it.

rrauenza 5y ago

You might find these videos interesting as they analyze interrogations and the subject's behavior. Sometimes the lying is part of eliciting responses that can be analyzed. https://www.youtube.com/c/jcscriminalpsychology https://www.youtube.com/c/jcscriminalpsychology I'm not particular fond of the lying though and the asymmetry ... You can't lie to law enforcement but they can lie to you.