4 ms·

I don't see that as a counterpoint, but more of a post hoc theory. How could the eradicators detect and destroy their victims before we detected any signal at a

I don't see that as a counterpoint, but more of a post hoc theory. How could the eradicators detect and destroy their victims before we detected any signal at all from the victims? And why haven't the eradicators come for us yet? Of course, this could always be explained by the distances involved and the limitations of light speed, but that would make the Dark Forest hypothesis redundant as an explanation as to why we haven't yet detected any alien civilisation(s).

saiya-jin 5y ago
I think what would explain this is our very limited timespan when we started listening to universe. There might have been 10 strong signals in last 2000 years, but last one could have happened around the time US declared independence. And 2000 years is nothing timewise on scale of universe. Plus we talk about signal that can maybe travel few hundred / a thousand light years before they blend into galactic and intergalactic noise.
yreg 5y ago
>How could the eradicators detect and destroy their victims before we detected any signal at all from the victims? Even if they destroy them within say a thousand years, then at any given time there would be only few civilizations at the right age to be broadcasting. And not very loud at that. We listen only to a miniscule portion of the Galaxy. IMO, Fermi's question shouldn't be "Why can't we hear the few civs that are close to our level". It should be "How come we don't detect Kardashev >2 civs collonizing most of the galaxy?" Why can't we detect a single Dyson Sphere? (I don't consider dark forest explanation to be probable though.)
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  The Fermi question is a lot closer to "how come Earth wasn't colonized before we even appear?" than "how come we can't see anybody?".
  - yreg 5y ago
    Yes, that's a cleaner way to put it.
  - mokus 5y ago
    How do we know we aren’t the colonists?
    - yreg 5y ago
      That doesn't solve the paradox though, unless we are quaranteened in a Zoo.
    - marcosdumay 5y ago
      You mean how we know the Earth wasn't seeded with something similar to archeo-bacteria on purpose? We don't but that doesn't solve the problem. Or how do we know that we, humans, aren't the colonists? Well, all the life we know comes from the same ancestry, including us.
    - tjalfi 5y ago
      There have been a couple science fiction novels with this premise: Protector[0] by Larry Niven David Weber's Dahak trilogy, available as the Empire from the Ashes[1] omnibus [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_(novel) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_from_the_Ashes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_from_the_Ashes
taneq 5y ago
> How could the eradicators detect and destroy their victims before we detected any signal at all from the victims? And why haven't the eradicators come for us yet? Because most civilizations are probably still a 100+ light years apart and we just haven't been around and listening for that long? Even if we've theoretically had the chance to detect another early civilization the other listeners have been listening for aeons longer than us and are much better at it.

saiya-jin 5y ago

I think what would explain this is our very limited timespan when we started listening to universe. There might have been 10 strong signals in last 2000 years, but last one could have happened around the time US declared independence. And 2000 years is nothing timewise on scale of universe. Plus we talk about signal that can maybe travel few hundred / a thousand light years before they blend into galactic and intergalactic noise.

yreg 5y ago

>How could the eradicators detect and destroy their victims before we detected any signal at all from the victims? Even if they destroy them within say a thousand years, then at any given time there would be only few civilizations at the right age to be broadcasting. And not very loud at that. We listen only to a miniscule portion of the Galaxy. IMO, Fermi's question shouldn't be "Why can't we hear the few civs that are close to our level". It should be "How come we don't detect Kardashev >2 civs collonizing most of the galaxy?" Why can't we detect a single Dyson Sphere? (I don't consider dark forest explanation to be probable though.)

marcosdumay 5y ago
The Fermi question is a lot closer to "how come Earth wasn't colonized before we even appear?" than "how come we can't see anybody?".
- yreg 5y ago
  Yes, that's a cleaner way to put it.
- mokus 5y ago
  How do we know we aren’t the colonists?
  - yreg 5y ago
    That doesn't solve the paradox though, unless we are quaranteened in a Zoo.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    You mean how we know the Earth wasn't seeded with something similar to archeo-bacteria on purpose? We don't but that doesn't solve the problem. Or how do we know that we, humans, aren't the colonists? Well, all the life we know comes from the same ancestry, including us.
  - tjalfi 5y ago
    There have been a couple science fiction novels with this premise: Protector[0] by Larry Niven David Weber's Dahak trilogy, available as the Empire from the Ashes[1] omnibus [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_(novel) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_from_the_Ashes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_from_the_Ashes

taneq 5y ago

> How could the eradicators detect and destroy their victims before we detected any signal at all from the victims? And why haven't the eradicators come for us yet? Because most civilizations are probably still a 100+ light years apart and we just haven't been around and listening for that long? Even if we've theoretically had the chance to detect another early civilization the other listeners have been listening for aeons longer than us and are much better at it.