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I love Valve but it seems like they create these hardware projects to occasionally remind platform owners like microsoft/playstation/nintendo that they can't co

I love Valve but it seems like they create these hardware projects to occasionally remind platform owners like microsoft/playstation/nintendo that they can't completely abuse their users and software devs (Win10 store lock-in, etc) and retain all of them. Valve just wants to protect steam and credible hardware platform competition is how they do it. I don't think they have any real plans to produce and support hardware long term.

belltaco 5y ago
And yet it looks like you cannot use the Steam Deck without logging into a Steam account. Looks like we are trading in one lock-in for another.
- kaetemi 5y ago
  You can install any OS on it, it's just a PC.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Seems like you can access the KDE desktop, so I think using the Steam account isn't mandatory. Not 100% sure though. Previous Steam machines allowed full control, even changing the OS.
- filoleg 5y ago
  Apples to oranges. Valve is concerned about hardware lock-in, not software lock-in. I think users care more about being able to play their games on any hardware platform they own than about which software platform hosts their games. Also, it seems like Steam Deck is just running a customized Linux distro, so it isn't really a lock-in. If Epic Games or Ubisoft decides to make their game stores work on Linux, I bet they would run on Steam Deck too. If that's the case, then how is it Valve's fault that other vendors/game stores aren't bothering to make their software platforms/games work on Linux? Valve put in the work, and they want to reap the fruits of it, without even trying to lock-in their device from using any other competitors' software (as far as I am aware). Competitors just gotta put in the work to make their platforms work on Linux.
  - ElFitz 5y ago
    > Apples to oranges Apple to Valve?
  - kbenson 5y ago
    > If Epic Games or Ubisoft decides to make their game stores work on Linux, I bet they would run on Steam Deck too. They can, because the FAQ says it's just a PC running Arch linux and you can install Windows on it if you want, which means you can do whatever you want. Maybe it can run on the same OS (probably, if it's just Linux, but we'll see how customized it is), or at a minimum you could just install something else.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  They state you can install a different OS. That is just if you want the default system. There was a video playing CK3 that shows KDE running so it's not like you can't install windows or a different distro.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    KDE is part of the stock software, apparently. Similar to existing versions of SteamOS in that regard, except with Arch + KDE instead of Debian + GNOME.
- lawl 5y ago
  > And yet it looks like you cannot use the Steam Deck without logging into a Steam account. Looks like we are trading in one lock-in for another. valve so far has been miles better than any other big DRM platform. i would almost bet valve will let you have root on these and do whatever you want with the hardware without any jailbreaks. It may not be supported, but I really cannot imagine them locking this down. That would be very much unlike valve. iirc steam machines back in the day did also let you go into a bash shell? full disclosure: i may contain traces of a valve fanboy.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > You can also install and use PC software, of course. Browse the web, watch streaming video, do your normal productivity stuff, install some other game stores, whatever. https://www.steamdeck.com/en/hardware https://www.steamdeck.com/en/hardware
  - l-albertovich 5y ago
    I'd like to think they'll at least make it easy to root or otherwise repurpose these because I like them and would likely get one, however, in the software part of the specs they state that they have been in the works with game studios to basically have them implement their anti-cheat systems in their platform so I suspect said studios would be against that. This is pure speculation on my side and I really hope I'm dead wrong but that's the first thing that comes to mind when I think about it (also, their own DRM right?). Edit : the reply bellow seems to prove me wrong =)
    - techrat 5y ago
      Why speculate when you can read directly from the product page yourself? >You can also install and use PC software, of course. Browse the web, watch streaming video, do your normal productivity stuff, install some other game stores, whatever. and >The default Steam Deck experience requires a Steam account (it's free!). Games are purchased and downloaded using the Steam Store. That said, Steam Deck is a PC so you can install third party software and operating systems.
  - 5y ago
- danso 5y ago
  The ign preview suggests otherwise: https://www.ign.com/articles/steam-deck-hands-on-impressions-details-valve-handheld-gaming-pc https://www.ign.com/articles/steam-deck-hands-on-impressions... > This flexibility means you can do pretty much anything on the Steam Deck that you can do with a regular PC. Connect a mouse and keyboard? Yep. Alt-Tab out of your games to a browser or video? Sure. Load third-party programs or even other game stores like Origin, uPlay, or Epic Games Store? No problem. You could even wipe Steam OS entirely and install a fresh version of Windows if you want – but the default Steam OS is smooth and efficient at getting you into your games, so I imagine most people won’t want or need to go that far. The point is, you can if you’d like to.
  - NikolaNovak 5y ago
    I wonder if pure cloud service like GeForce Now can then be used, to benefit from portable hardware but have semblance of battery life, and avoid a likely jetengine cooling fan spin up...
    - captn3m0 5y ago
      Assuming that Valve does a decent job with integrating the inputs, and they show up correctly with the HTML5 GamePad APIs, it ought to just work.
- timdorr 5y ago
  You don't need a Steam account if you're not using the default Steam Deck install. Wipe it and install TempleOS. > Do I need a Steam account to use Steam Deck? > The default Steam Deck experience requires a Steam account (it's free!). Games are purchased and downloaded using the Steam Store. That said, Steam Deck is a PC so you can install third party software and operating systems. https://store.steampowered.com/steamdeck https://store.steampowered.com/steamdeck
  - blooalien 5y ago
    > The default Steam Deck experience requires a Steam account (it's free!). Games are purchased and downloaded using the Steam Store. I imagine that would be because the "default Steam Deck experience" probably defaults to booting into Steam Big Picture mode, just like SteamOS does by default.
- IggleSniggle 5y ago
  On the landing page they say "You can connect to peripherals, throw the picture onto a big screen, and do all the other PC things you'd expect." On the hardware page they show it docked and running a normal desktop interface and say "Use your Deck as a PC. Because it is one" and "You can also install and use PC software, of course. Browse the web, watch streaming video, do your normal productivity stuff, install some other game stores, whatever." On the spec page, it says the OS is SteamOS 3.0 (Arch-based) and Desktop is KDE Plasma. I guess I'm just not understanding where you'd even get the impression that it would be locked into a Steam account.
- mcdevilkiller 5y ago
  Wrong, you can install whatever OS you want, the developers even said so. You have a lot of freedom.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  The FAQs and such make it clear that it's basically an ordinary PC in a handheld form factor; if you don't want to log into a Steam account, then any ol' Linux distro or even Windows should run on it just fine (though whether the handheld controls play nicely is something I'd be curious about).
- mastazi 5y ago
  They say in their partner website that it's a PC, and that you can even wipe out Steam OS and install another OS if you want. https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamdeck/faq https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamdeck/faq
CivBase 5y ago
> I don't think they have any real plans to produce and support hardware long term. With Valve's track record, I absolutely believe they have limited plans for production in the long term. But their long-term hardware support is impeccable. I have several discontinued pieces of hardware from Valve (the Steam Link and Steam Controller), both of which are still used and work as well as they day I bought them - better even, thanks to continued software updates.
- kllrnohj 5y ago
  The Steam Link, released in 2015 and discontinued in 2018, is still getting firmware updates to this day. Valve's long-term support of the hardware they do release really is impeccable.
minsc__and__boo 5y ago
Seems like the Google Fiber strategy - start deploying key products/services to influence the big players in the market to finally innovate or at least play nice for consumers.
- AceJohnny2 5y ago
  Sadly, I'm not convinced that strategy has any long term effect. I'm still bitter about how bad & expensive Internet access is in the Silicon Valley
  - minsc__and__boo 5y ago
    I think that says more about Silicon Valley municipal priorities than anything else. Besides, when it comes to infrastructure and consumer habits, influencing any change for the better is still better than none at all.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Afintiy: From $29.99/month for for 10 mbps. AT&T: From $40.00/mo for 45 mbps What are you paying?
    - solumos 5y ago
      Isn't Fiber more than 20x that speed for less than 2x the price in Austin, TX?
    - rewq4321 5y ago
      Honest question (I may have misunderstood): Do you mean to imply that those are good prices? For reference, I'm paying about $40 for 1000 mbps (I'm not in the US). Can go to 10gbps for about double that price (IIRC), but I think the bottleneck becomes server bandwidth so it wouldn't speed me up for most services.
      - zeusk 5y ago
        I pay $50 for symmetric gigabit in Redmond, WA. Not everywhere in US has crappy internet but the most populous places are entrenched.
MikusR 5y ago
What windows store lock-in?
- Nullabillity 5y ago
  MS has tried to push locked versions of Windows several times over the years, starting with Windows RT up until S Mode (which is still a thing).
- kmeisthax 5y ago
  This is way back about a decade ago, when Valve was very Windows-centric and barely even had macOS ports of Steam running. Windows 8 was announced with an entirely new application type, APIs, and distribution model intended to support tablets. Existing applications were shoved in the Desktop penalty box, while new applications had to be fullscreen or side-by-side, like a tablet. Furthermore, Windows on ARM was announced, with the Desktop penalty box further restricted to only Windows apps (though you could jailbreak it). If you wanted your app to work as a tablet app, you had to rewrite it for XAML and distribute it through the Microsoft Store, with similar technical restrictions to that of Apple's. The very clear message from Microsoft was that the future of Windows was in fullscreen tablet apps and that the desktop - as well as third-party app stores - was going away. Valve would proceed to launch a Linux version of Steam a few months before Windows 8 RTM'd, their own Linux distro a year later, and consolized PC hardware another year after that. Basically, the whole company made a very clear pivot away from game development (which they still haven't fully gone back to) to ensure Steam had a lifeboat if Windows 9 were to drop the Desktop or enforce app lockouts on it. Of course, what actually happened is that Windows 8 became the laughing stock of the entire PC industry. Microsoft was trying, like, five developer transitions at once and nobody was interested. (Not even Apple can do that, and they actually did try. Ask me about Rhapsody sometime.) So the end result is that app developers never wrote anything to the new native XAML APIs, users just used the Desktop app, and nobody had any interest in Windows on ARM tablets. That's why you don't remember the Windows Store lock-in; in Windows 10, Microsoft got rid of it.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    No it didn't, in fact the new revamped store also includes Win32. https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2021/06/24/building-a-new-open-microsoft-store-on-windows-11/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2021/06/24/build...
ineedasername 5y ago
A reminder that if Microsoft does continue along that path, Valve is happy to come along and gobble up significant portions of their market share. It's a win-win for Valve: either MS keeps their platform out of a walled garden, allowing Steam to continue it's current path, or Valve eats their lunch while making Linux in general a more mainstream option.
whywhywhywhy 5y ago
End of the day Valve will never work seriously on hardware at a level will allow them to compete. Hardware is extremely difficult and extremely expensive. High effort and almost always low to no reward unless you manage to create a breakout device. Valve already has the business that most people build the hardware for in the first place. The reason Microsoft makes Xbox is to get a cut of game sales and sell a subscription. Valve already gets a cut of almost all PC sales so really trying to build hardware looks bad on almost every conceivable company chart within Valve. Yet they keep doing it every 5 years ago due to presumably due to their weird management.
- linuxftw 5y ago
  They're not building traditional hardware. This is off the shelf components assembled in a particular manner, most likely by a 3rd party. IMO, this is a great move. They're building a cheap device that plays AAA games in a cool Switch-like form factor. I think targeting teenagers and young adults. I think the industry is changing how they do business, a mainstream Linux/AMD device is leading the way.
  - whywhywhywhy 5y ago
    > They're not building traditional hardware. This is off the shelf components assembled in a particular manner I can tell you from personal experience this isn't easy at all and is just as difficult as any other hardware project, even if you're not literally building new processors or hardware firmwares it's still a huge mission getting something like that to market let alone making it profitable. I work on a company that has shipped laptops where we designed all the casing with off the shelf processor/storage/etc, so have worked on what you're describing here.
    - linuxftw 5y ago
      Laptops are completely commoditized, of course you would struggle with profitability there. For a company the size of Valve, building these devices probably carries very little risk. The biggest risk is the software, which they were going to tackle anyway.
jhanschoo 5y ago
I think it's reasonable to think Valve is more committed with this. Valve now faces more competitors in game distribution than ever and it's a good way to shore up their value proposition in a way that is not easily replicated by its PC-only competitors.

belltaco 5y ago

And yet it looks like you cannot use the Steam Deck without logging into a Steam account. Looks like we are trading in one lock-in for another.

kaetemi 5y ago
You can install any OS on it, it's just a PC.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Seems like you can access the KDE desktop, so I think using the Steam account isn't mandatory. Not 100% sure though. Previous Steam machines allowed full control, even changing the OS.
filoleg 5y ago
Apples to oranges. Valve is concerned about hardware lock-in, not software lock-in. I think users care more about being able to play their games on any hardware platform they own than about which software platform hosts their games. Also, it seems like Steam Deck is just running a customized Linux distro, so it isn't really a lock-in. If Epic Games or Ubisoft decides to make their game stores work on Linux, I bet they would run on Steam Deck too. If that's the case, then how is it Valve's fault that other vendors/game stores aren't bothering to make their software platforms/games work on Linux? Valve put in the work, and they want to reap the fruits of it, without even trying to lock-in their device from using any other competitors' software (as far as I am aware). Competitors just gotta put in the work to make their platforms work on Linux.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  > Apples to oranges Apple to Valve?
- kbenson 5y ago
  > If Epic Games or Ubisoft decides to make their game stores work on Linux, I bet they would run on Steam Deck too. They can, because the FAQ says it's just a PC running Arch linux and you can install Windows on it if you want, which means you can do whatever you want. Maybe it can run on the same OS (probably, if it's just Linux, but we'll see how customized it is), or at a minimum you could just install something else.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
They state you can install a different OS. That is just if you want the default system. There was a video playing CK3 that shows KDE running so it's not like you can't install windows or a different distro.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  KDE is part of the stock software, apparently. Similar to existing versions of SteamOS in that regard, except with Arch + KDE instead of Debian + GNOME.
lawl 5y ago
> And yet it looks like you cannot use the Steam Deck without logging into a Steam account. Looks like we are trading in one lock-in for another. valve so far has been miles better than any other big DRM platform. i would almost bet valve will let you have root on these and do whatever you want with the hardware without any jailbreaks. It may not be supported, but I really cannot imagine them locking this down. That would be very much unlike valve. iirc steam machines back in the day did also let you go into a bash shell? full disclosure: i may contain traces of a valve fanboy.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > You can also install and use PC software, of course. Browse the web, watch streaming video, do your normal productivity stuff, install some other game stores, whatever. https://www.steamdeck.com/en/hardware https://www.steamdeck.com/en/hardware
- l-albertovich 5y ago
  I'd like to think they'll at least make it easy to root or otherwise repurpose these because I like them and would likely get one, however, in the software part of the specs they state that they have been in the works with game studios to basically have them implement their anti-cheat systems in their platform so I suspect said studios would be against that. This is pure speculation on my side and I really hope I'm dead wrong but that's the first thing that comes to mind when I think about it (also, their own DRM right?). Edit : the reply bellow seems to prove me wrong =)
  - techrat 5y ago
    Why speculate when you can read directly from the product page yourself? >You can also install and use PC software, of course. Browse the web, watch streaming video, do your normal productivity stuff, install some other game stores, whatever. and >The default Steam Deck experience requires a Steam account (it's free!). Games are purchased and downloaded using the Steam Store. That said, Steam Deck is a PC so you can install third party software and operating systems.
- 5y ago
danso 5y ago
The ign preview suggests otherwise: https://www.ign.com/articles/steam-deck-hands-on-impressions-details-valve-handheld-gaming-pc https://www.ign.com/articles/steam-deck-hands-on-impressions... > This flexibility means you can do pretty much anything on the Steam Deck that you can do with a regular PC. Connect a mouse and keyboard? Yep. Alt-Tab out of your games to a browser or video? Sure. Load third-party programs or even other game stores like Origin, uPlay, or Epic Games Store? No problem. You could even wipe Steam OS entirely and install a fresh version of Windows if you want – but the default Steam OS is smooth and efficient at getting you into your games, so I imagine most people won’t want or need to go that far. The point is, you can if you’d like to.
- NikolaNovak 5y ago
  I wonder if pure cloud service like GeForce Now can then be used, to benefit from portable hardware but have semblance of battery life, and avoid a likely jetengine cooling fan spin up...
  - captn3m0 5y ago
    Assuming that Valve does a decent job with integrating the inputs, and they show up correctly with the HTML5 GamePad APIs, it ought to just work.
timdorr 5y ago
You don't need a Steam account if you're not using the default Steam Deck install. Wipe it and install TempleOS. > Do I need a Steam account to use Steam Deck? > The default Steam Deck experience requires a Steam account (it's free!). Games are purchased and downloaded using the Steam Store. That said, Steam Deck is a PC so you can install third party software and operating systems. https://store.steampowered.com/steamdeck https://store.steampowered.com/steamdeck
- blooalien 5y ago
  > The default Steam Deck experience requires a Steam account (it's free!). Games are purchased and downloaded using the Steam Store. I imagine that would be because the "default Steam Deck experience" probably defaults to booting into Steam Big Picture mode, just like SteamOS does by default.
IggleSniggle 5y ago
On the landing page they say "You can connect to peripherals, throw the picture onto a big screen, and do all the other PC things you'd expect." On the hardware page they show it docked and running a normal desktop interface and say "Use your Deck as a PC. Because it is one" and "You can also install and use PC software, of course. Browse the web, watch streaming video, do your normal productivity stuff, install some other game stores, whatever." On the spec page, it says the OS is SteamOS 3.0 (Arch-based) and Desktop is KDE Plasma. I guess I'm just not understanding where you'd even get the impression that it would be locked into a Steam account.
mcdevilkiller 5y ago
Wrong, you can install whatever OS you want, the developers even said so. You have a lot of freedom.
yellowapple 5y ago
The FAQs and such make it clear that it's basically an ordinary PC in a handheld form factor; if you don't want to log into a Steam account, then any ol' Linux distro or even Windows should run on it just fine (though whether the handheld controls play nicely is something I'd be curious about).
mastazi 5y ago
They say in their partner website that it's a PC, and that you can even wipe out Steam OS and install another OS if you want. https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamdeck/faq https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamdeck/faq

CivBase 5y ago

> I don't think they have any real plans to produce and support hardware long term. With Valve's track record, I absolutely believe they have limited plans for production in the long term. But their long-term hardware support is impeccable. I have several discontinued pieces of hardware from Valve (the Steam Link and Steam Controller), both of which are still used and work as well as they day I bought them - better even, thanks to continued software updates.

kllrnohj 5y ago
The Steam Link, released in 2015 and discontinued in 2018, is still getting firmware updates to this day. Valve's long-term support of the hardware they do release really is impeccable.

minsc__and__boo 5y ago

Seems like the Google Fiber strategy - start deploying key products/services to influence the big players in the market to finally innovate or at least play nice for consumers.

AceJohnny2 5y ago
Sadly, I'm not convinced that strategy has any long term effect. I'm still bitter about how bad & expensive Internet access is in the Silicon Valley
- minsc__and__boo 5y ago
  I think that says more about Silicon Valley municipal priorities than anything else. Besides, when it comes to infrastructure and consumer habits, influencing any change for the better is still better than none at all.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Afintiy: From $29.99/month for for 10 mbps. AT&T: From $40.00/mo for 45 mbps What are you paying?
  - solumos 5y ago
    Isn't Fiber more than 20x that speed for less than 2x the price in Austin, TX?
  - rewq4321 5y ago
    Honest question (I may have misunderstood): Do you mean to imply that those are good prices? For reference, I'm paying about $40 for 1000 mbps (I'm not in the US). Can go to 10gbps for about double that price (IIRC), but I think the bottleneck becomes server bandwidth so it wouldn't speed me up for most services.
    - zeusk 5y ago
      I pay $50 for symmetric gigabit in Redmond, WA. Not everywhere in US has crappy internet but the most populous places are entrenched.

MikusR 5y ago

What windows store lock-in?

Nullabillity 5y ago
MS has tried to push locked versions of Windows several times over the years, starting with Windows RT up until S Mode (which is still a thing).
kmeisthax 5y ago
This is way back about a decade ago, when Valve was very Windows-centric and barely even had macOS ports of Steam running. Windows 8 was announced with an entirely new application type, APIs, and distribution model intended to support tablets. Existing applications were shoved in the Desktop penalty box, while new applications had to be fullscreen or side-by-side, like a tablet. Furthermore, Windows on ARM was announced, with the Desktop penalty box further restricted to only Windows apps (though you could jailbreak it). If you wanted your app to work as a tablet app, you had to rewrite it for XAML and distribute it through the Microsoft Store, with similar technical restrictions to that of Apple's. The very clear message from Microsoft was that the future of Windows was in fullscreen tablet apps and that the desktop - as well as third-party app stores - was going away. Valve would proceed to launch a Linux version of Steam a few months before Windows 8 RTM'd, their own Linux distro a year later, and consolized PC hardware another year after that. Basically, the whole company made a very clear pivot away from game development (which they still haven't fully gone back to) to ensure Steam had a lifeboat if Windows 9 were to drop the Desktop or enforce app lockouts on it. Of course, what actually happened is that Windows 8 became the laughing stock of the entire PC industry. Microsoft was trying, like, five developer transitions at once and nobody was interested. (Not even Apple can do that, and they actually did try. Ask me about Rhapsody sometime.) So the end result is that app developers never wrote anything to the new native XAML APIs, users just used the Desktop app, and nobody had any interest in Windows on ARM tablets. That's why you don't remember the Windows Store lock-in; in Windows 10, Microsoft got rid of it.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  No it didn't, in fact the new revamped store also includes Win32. https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2021/06/24/building-a-new-open-microsoft-store-on-windows-11/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2021/06/24/build...

ineedasername 5y ago

A reminder that if Microsoft does continue along that path, Valve is happy to come along and gobble up significant portions of their market share. It's a win-win for Valve: either MS keeps their platform out of a walled garden, allowing Steam to continue it's current path, or Valve eats their lunch while making Linux in general a more mainstream option.

whywhywhywhy 5y ago

End of the day Valve will never work seriously on hardware at a level will allow them to compete. Hardware is extremely difficult and extremely expensive. High effort and almost always low to no reward unless you manage to create a breakout device. Valve already has the business that most people build the hardware for in the first place. The reason Microsoft makes Xbox is to get a cut of game sales and sell a subscription. Valve already gets a cut of almost all PC sales so really trying to build hardware looks bad on almost every conceivable company chart within Valve. Yet they keep doing it every 5 years ago due to presumably due to their weird management.

linuxftw 5y ago
They're not building traditional hardware. This is off the shelf components assembled in a particular manner, most likely by a 3rd party. IMO, this is a great move. They're building a cheap device that plays AAA games in a cool Switch-like form factor. I think targeting teenagers and young adults. I think the industry is changing how they do business, a mainstream Linux/AMD device is leading the way.
- whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  > They're not building traditional hardware. This is off the shelf components assembled in a particular manner I can tell you from personal experience this isn't easy at all and is just as difficult as any other hardware project, even if you're not literally building new processors or hardware firmwares it's still a huge mission getting something like that to market let alone making it profitable. I work on a company that has shipped laptops where we designed all the casing with off the shelf processor/storage/etc, so have worked on what you're describing here.
  - linuxftw 5y ago
    Laptops are completely commoditized, of course you would struggle with profitability there. For a company the size of Valve, building these devices probably carries very little risk. The biggest risk is the software, which they were going to tackle anyway.

jhanschoo 5y ago

I think it's reasonable to think Valve is more committed with this. Valve now faces more competitors in game distribution than ever and it's a good way to shore up their value proposition in a way that is not easily replicated by its PC-only competitors.