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That's the heart of GP's critique. People are masking abusive and manipulative statements with the language of NVC. Here's a mild example: "Altcongnito, when I

That's the heart of GP's critique. People are masking abusive and manipulative statements with the language of NVC. Here's a mild example: "Altcongnito, when I see you leave work and there are still tickets in the queue, I feel disappointed, because I need us to work as a team. Would you be willing to work late until we get through them?" What people rightly feel is a disconnect between the language of NVC and the spirit of NVC in these situations.

tome 5y ago
Interesting, what's your objection to that? Seems like a reasonable way to make a request to me. Also seems reasonable to agree to or deny the request.
- jstx1 5y ago
  If I heard this, I would think that those words are coming either from a sociopath or from a very socially inept person who read a self-help book. There are probably cultural differences in how it's perceived but it sounds so fake, forced and manipulative that it would make me put my defences up immediately.
- Majestic121 5y ago
  Not the parent, but my objection to that would be that your feelings are yours to handle, not me. And for this kind of request, saying that you feel disappointed because I don't have time to finish the tickets will definitely backfire, with a "you should adjust your expectations", and using emotion talk in this context will immediately frame the talk as manipulative.
- mrRandomGuy 5y ago
  Anytime a manager/boss brings up "needing to work as a team" as a reason to stay late is a subtle threat of losing your job if you don't do OT.
  - Kranar 5y ago
    Would it then be preferable for the manager to be more direct and assertive and state "In order to continue being employed here, you will need you to work overtime." To me there needs to be a differentiation between communication style, and consequence. If it is the case that your job is at risk unless you work late nights, is it preferable to be direct about it, use assertive language, or is it preferable to use NVC, and express ones feelings and other details that form some sense of empathy?
- aaron-santos 5y ago
  My personal objection is that it purposely confuses things. It's worded in a way that connects declining with not being a team player. Obviously that's an intentional construction and to some people it makes perfect sense. It also is emotionally manipulative because it intentionally seeks to manipulate the receivers emotional state so that they comply. Some people will comply to resolve that discomfort. The inherent power imbalance distorts the situation. It also confuses the language of personal relationships (affective statements) with the workplace. To me, this is in the same realm as getting employees to view the workplace as a family. Again it hijacks the our relationship cognition centers in order to engage in exploitation. Declining in a regular relationship has regular relationship consequences. Declining this kind of statement from a boss has livelihood consequences. The solution in the workplace? Just say it plainly. Bringing NVC into the workplace is fertile ground for emotional manipulation.
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    Agreed. Communication in the workplace should revolve around shared goals leading to shared rewards. "Let's impress this client with a great product so we can all get big performance bonuses from the profits made from closing the sale." I think that's all the emotional connection the vast majority of employees are looking for in their jobs.
watwut 5y ago
Nothing is masked in that? It sounds to me pretty straightforward. The issue with that is content - the attempt to make you work late without good reason. There is no way to phrase the above to make it sounds good. At least it sounds honest. The reason for late work is emotional (as often is) rather then rational reaction to unexpected business need.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  Here's how the boss could deal with the same situation without sounding like a weasel: "You're the only person we have who is able to fix these bugs, and if you don't fix them we'll go out of business. I need you to stay late until this backlog is cleared because if you don't, half our clients will drop us at the next renewal. I will make it up to you in your next performance evaluation." (Substitute whatever urgent problem has lead to needing someone to work overtime.)
  - Kranar 5y ago
    But that's not true, the idea that a company will go out of business if one person doesn't work overnight is simply and factually false. The business desires that a person to work overtime to reduce costs, avoid hiring additional staff, etc... not because it's an existential threat.
    - whatshisface 5y ago
      >the idea that a company will go out of business if one person doesn't work overnight is simply and factually false. If you don't think that can happen, you don't know much about startup chaos. :-) I agree with your implication, though, that when there is no need for the employee to work overtime, there is no right way to ask them to work overtime.
      - watwut 5y ago
        No, not even in startups.
manmal 5y ago
I fully agree. Zooming in on your example: I think by the definition of NVC on Wikipedia, "I need us to work as a team" is not a need as in "universal human need". It's the deposition of an assertion ("team work means not leaving work before all tickets are resolved"), wrongly or maliciously expressed as a need. IMO the best way to respond to that would be "Aaron-santos, I understand that you feel disappointed now. Unfortunately I absolutely need to leave at X o'clock. How about we make a plan for tackling this insane workload such that everybody on the team feels supported?"
- Malp 5y ago
  Precisely this. The book refers to the difference between a 'need' and a 'request', and what differentiates the two. In this case, this would fall under the category of a request, and is not considered NVC.
- Rapzid 5y ago
  Nice, flips the script and exposes their passive aggressive, manipulative language.
rustybelt 5y ago
If it's coming from a manager it hides the power relationship and creates the false impression that the participants are peers who share and care about each others feelings. It's actually a worse way to tell someone they aren't doing a good job because not only does it criticize their performance it implies that they are inconsiderate. If it's coming from an actual peer, it's just weird.
potatoman22 5y ago
If the boss intended to manipulate the employee, wouldn't they be able to do that without NVC? Is the language of NVC the problem here?
jimkleiber 5y ago
I think what's missing is the consideration of how the other person is feeling. I use a three-step process 1) how I'' feeling 2) how I imagine they might be feeling and 3) say one thing to connect with love. In this example above, if after saying "I need us to work as a team," the person were to say "and I imagine maybe you're leaving because you're worried about something at home or afraid you're gonna burnout or who knows what" and then ask "would you willing to work late (this time) until we get through them?" I think what the NVC process lacks (or maybe I just don't know it well enough) is a way to show the other person we are considering how they feel. I have found it works absolute wonders at times, not only to show the other person I'm thinking of them, but also to actually get me to more consciously think of them, which can alter how I proceed. Maybe I even realize that the tickets aren't that important when I imagine they may be stressed to pick up their kids from school because their marriage might already be on the rocks and they don't want to push it overboard.
- PebblesRox 5y ago
  I've found the Kidpower Boundary Bridge to be a helpful framework when I know I need to speak up about something bothering me but I'm afraid of awkwardness and conflict. It starts with a connecting statement where you put yourselves in the other person's shoes and you can include a disclaimer that you know they didn't mean to hurt your feelings. The rest of it seems similar to NVC. One takeaway I got from Kidpower is that the minor conflicts I'm tempted to ignore because "it's not that big a deal" are actually great opportunities for me to practice being more assertive so I'll be prepared for situations where I do have to take action. Plus I think the act of resolving a conflict can strengthen and deepen a relationship when it's done well. So if I stay quiet out of fear of bad feelings, I'm leaving a lot on the table. https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/kidpower-boundaries-bridge-for-positive-communication/ https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/kidpower-boundaries...
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    Ooo, I had never heard of this. Thank you for pointing it out, I'll check into it more. At first glance, personally, I worry that I'll not remember all 7 steps so that's another reason why I like the three steps I use. If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're saying you first communicate to them what you imagine their situation to be and that they have a good intention, I think that can work as well. I've seen that sometimes when I do that, I will passively still be angry or frustrated and the person is just waiting for me to say "but" or "and"—discounting what I'm saying in the beginning waiting for the metaphorical hammer to drop. > the minor conflicts I'm tempted to ignore because "it's not that big a deal" are actually great opportunities for me to practice I strongly agree. I feel less afraid apologizing for being late for a coffee than telling someone I want to get divorced and can be a great way to practice. Another way that I've found to practice is that I actually run classes and have created audios to practice dealing with such emotional conflict/attacks. I've found that role-playing it can help me gain more confidence and skills in resolving it. Additionally, I'm starting to believe more and more that almost all big conflicts are built of many little conflicts. E.g., two people get divorced often not because of one thing, but because of many many events that created more distance over time. In this way, the better I get at resolving the micro-conflict, at the little events that drive us farther apart, the less likely big conflicts will happen. At the end of the day, I feel excited for whatever framework/tool/strategy works for you. Again, thank you for sharing this one and for trying to do this work :-)
jimbokun 5y ago
And what this reinforces to me is the importance of "professionalism" in a work place setting. Requiring everyone in your workplace to engage coworkers with a level of emotional intimacy and care can impose even greater burdens on your employees. Sometimes it can be better to just try to impose fair rules on everyone, and straight forwardly convey to everyone where they stand in terms of expectations and performance. Blame free retrospectives are also crucial in cases where things don't go well. Instead of: "You make me feel X way when you didn't close out your tickets." Try: "I generally hate asking anyone to work extra hours, but in this case if the ticket doesn't get fixed we are likely to lose the contract we are depending on to pay everyone's salary. Can you please stay late and get this done? We can work out a way to give you some extra PTO to make up for this in the near future."
BeetleB 5y ago
If you want to handle abuses of NVC, then learn some NVC! To begin with, a fundamental principle of NVC is that when you make a request, you cannot expect the other person to agree to the request and if you are frustrated when they decline (let alone show frustration), then you were not making a request, but a demand masked as a request. As such, call them out on it! His behavior that you're describing is literally something the book says is a violation of NVC. Given that context, NVC is not an appropriate way to communicate an order/demand. No matter the words you use: If it's a demand, it's not NVC by definition. So respond NVC style: "When you say your need is to work as a team, I am confused as I do not understand how that is a need. Would you be willing to expand on that?" Or even more boldly: "When you say your need is to work as a team, I am confused as that sounds like a evaluation/judgement/narrative and not a need. Would you be willing to clarify your need?" (Judgements are a fundamental violation of NVC. If he's trying to manipulate you this way, call them out on it) "When I work late to finish the tickets, I am [exhausted/dissatisfied/insert-feeling-here] as I need rest. Would you explain what will go wrong if these tickets are addressed tomorrow?" The other NVC lesson I'd like you all to learn is that it is very explicit: You are not responsible for other's feelings. If your perception is the other party is offloading feelings on to you because they use NVC, understand that NVC itself tells you not to be burdened by it. The ideal is that you respond to people's feelings out of a sense of compassion, not out of obligation. And you're never wrong if you ignore their feelings (it's merely not ideal to do so).

tome 5y ago

Interesting, what's your objection to that? Seems like a reasonable way to make a request to me. Also seems reasonable to agree to or deny the request.

jstx1 5y ago
If I heard this, I would think that those words are coming either from a sociopath or from a very socially inept person who read a self-help book. There are probably cultural differences in how it's perceived but it sounds so fake, forced and manipulative that it would make me put my defences up immediately.
Majestic121 5y ago
Not the parent, but my objection to that would be that your feelings are yours to handle, not me. And for this kind of request, saying that you feel disappointed because I don't have time to finish the tickets will definitely backfire, with a "you should adjust your expectations", and using emotion talk in this context will immediately frame the talk as manipulative.
mrRandomGuy 5y ago
Anytime a manager/boss brings up "needing to work as a team" as a reason to stay late is a subtle threat of losing your job if you don't do OT.
- Kranar 5y ago
  Would it then be preferable for the manager to be more direct and assertive and state "In order to continue being employed here, you will need you to work overtime." To me there needs to be a differentiation between communication style, and consequence. If it is the case that your job is at risk unless you work late nights, is it preferable to be direct about it, use assertive language, or is it preferable to use NVC, and express ones feelings and other details that form some sense of empathy?
aaron-santos 5y ago
My personal objection is that it purposely confuses things. It's worded in a way that connects declining with not being a team player. Obviously that's an intentional construction and to some people it makes perfect sense. It also is emotionally manipulative because it intentionally seeks to manipulate the receivers emotional state so that they comply. Some people will comply to resolve that discomfort. The inherent power imbalance distorts the situation. It also confuses the language of personal relationships (affective statements) with the workplace. To me, this is in the same realm as getting employees to view the workplace as a family. Again it hijacks the our relationship cognition centers in order to engage in exploitation. Declining in a regular relationship has regular relationship consequences. Declining this kind of statement from a boss has livelihood consequences. The solution in the workplace? Just say it plainly. Bringing NVC into the workplace is fertile ground for emotional manipulation.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  Agreed. Communication in the workplace should revolve around shared goals leading to shared rewards. "Let's impress this client with a great product so we can all get big performance bonuses from the profits made from closing the sale." I think that's all the emotional connection the vast majority of employees are looking for in their jobs.

watwut 5y ago

Nothing is masked in that? It sounds to me pretty straightforward. The issue with that is content - the attempt to make you work late without good reason. There is no way to phrase the above to make it sounds good. At least it sounds honest. The reason for late work is emotional (as often is) rather then rational reaction to unexpected business need.

whatshisface 5y ago
Here's how the boss could deal with the same situation without sounding like a weasel: "You're the only person we have who is able to fix these bugs, and if you don't fix them we'll go out of business. I need you to stay late until this backlog is cleared because if you don't, half our clients will drop us at the next renewal. I will make it up to you in your next performance evaluation." (Substitute whatever urgent problem has lead to needing someone to work overtime.)
- Kranar 5y ago
  But that's not true, the idea that a company will go out of business if one person doesn't work overnight is simply and factually false. The business desires that a person to work overtime to reduce costs, avoid hiring additional staff, etc... not because it's an existential threat.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    >the idea that a company will go out of business if one person doesn't work overnight is simply and factually false. If you don't think that can happen, you don't know much about startup chaos. :-) I agree with your implication, though, that when there is no need for the employee to work overtime, there is no right way to ask them to work overtime.
    - watwut 5y ago
      No, not even in startups.

manmal 5y ago

I fully agree. Zooming in on your example: I think by the definition of NVC on Wikipedia, "I need us to work as a team" is not a need as in "universal human need". It's the deposition of an assertion ("team work means not leaving work before all tickets are resolved"), wrongly or maliciously expressed as a need. IMO the best way to respond to that would be "Aaron-santos, I understand that you feel disappointed now. Unfortunately I absolutely need to leave at X o'clock. How about we make a plan for tackling this insane workload such that everybody on the team feels supported?"

Malp 5y ago
Precisely this. The book refers to the difference between a 'need' and a 'request', and what differentiates the two. In this case, this would fall under the category of a request, and is not considered NVC.
Rapzid 5y ago
Nice, flips the script and exposes their passive aggressive, manipulative language.

rustybelt 5y ago

If it's coming from a manager it hides the power relationship and creates the false impression that the participants are peers who share and care about each others feelings. It's actually a worse way to tell someone they aren't doing a good job because not only does it criticize their performance it implies that they are inconsiderate. If it's coming from an actual peer, it's just weird.

potatoman22 5y ago

If the boss intended to manipulate the employee, wouldn't they be able to do that without NVC? Is the language of NVC the problem here?

jimkleiber 5y ago

I think what's missing is the consideration of how the other person is feeling. I use a three-step process 1) how I'' feeling 2) how I imagine they might be feeling and 3) say one thing to connect with love. In this example above, if after saying "I need us to work as a team," the person were to say "and I imagine maybe you're leaving because you're worried about something at home or afraid you're gonna burnout or who knows what" and then ask "would you willing to work late (this time) until we get through them?" I think what the NVC process lacks (or maybe I just don't know it well enough) is a way to show the other person we are considering how they feel. I have found it works absolute wonders at times, not only to show the other person I'm thinking of them, but also to actually get me to more consciously think of them, which can alter how I proceed. Maybe I even realize that the tickets aren't that important when I imagine they may be stressed to pick up their kids from school because their marriage might already be on the rocks and they don't want to push it overboard.

PebblesRox 5y ago
I've found the Kidpower Boundary Bridge to be a helpful framework when I know I need to speak up about something bothering me but I'm afraid of awkwardness and conflict. It starts with a connecting statement where you put yourselves in the other person's shoes and you can include a disclaimer that you know they didn't mean to hurt your feelings. The rest of it seems similar to NVC. One takeaway I got from Kidpower is that the minor conflicts I'm tempted to ignore because "it's not that big a deal" are actually great opportunities for me to practice being more assertive so I'll be prepared for situations where I do have to take action. Plus I think the act of resolving a conflict can strengthen and deepen a relationship when it's done well. So if I stay quiet out of fear of bad feelings, I'm leaving a lot on the table. https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/kidpower-boundaries-bridge-for-positive-communication/ https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/kidpower-boundaries...
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  Ooo, I had never heard of this. Thank you for pointing it out, I'll check into it more. At first glance, personally, I worry that I'll not remember all 7 steps so that's another reason why I like the three steps I use. If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're saying you first communicate to them what you imagine their situation to be and that they have a good intention, I think that can work as well. I've seen that sometimes when I do that, I will passively still be angry or frustrated and the person is just waiting for me to say "but" or "and"—discounting what I'm saying in the beginning waiting for the metaphorical hammer to drop. > the minor conflicts I'm tempted to ignore because "it's not that big a deal" are actually great opportunities for me to practice I strongly agree. I feel less afraid apologizing for being late for a coffee than telling someone I want to get divorced and can be a great way to practice. Another way that I've found to practice is that I actually run classes and have created audios to practice dealing with such emotional conflict/attacks. I've found that role-playing it can help me gain more confidence and skills in resolving it. Additionally, I'm starting to believe more and more that almost all big conflicts are built of many little conflicts. E.g., two people get divorced often not because of one thing, but because of many many events that created more distance over time. In this way, the better I get at resolving the micro-conflict, at the little events that drive us farther apart, the less likely big conflicts will happen. At the end of the day, I feel excited for whatever framework/tool/strategy works for you. Again, thank you for sharing this one and for trying to do this work :-)

jimbokun 5y ago

And what this reinforces to me is the importance of "professionalism" in a work place setting. Requiring everyone in your workplace to engage coworkers with a level of emotional intimacy and care can impose even greater burdens on your employees. Sometimes it can be better to just try to impose fair rules on everyone, and straight forwardly convey to everyone where they stand in terms of expectations and performance. Blame free retrospectives are also crucial in cases where things don't go well. Instead of: "You make me feel X way when you didn't close out your tickets." Try: "I generally hate asking anyone to work extra hours, but in this case if the ticket doesn't get fixed we are likely to lose the contract we are depending on to pay everyone's salary. Can you please stay late and get this done? We can work out a way to give you some extra PTO to make up for this in the near future."

BeetleB 5y ago

If you want to handle abuses of NVC, then learn some NVC! To begin with, a fundamental principle of NVC is that when you make a request, you cannot expect the other person to agree to the request and if you are frustrated when they decline (let alone show frustration), then you were not making a request, but a demand masked as a request. As such, call them out on it! His behavior that you're describing is literally something the book says is a violation of NVC. Given that context, NVC is not an appropriate way to communicate an order/demand. No matter the words you use: If it's a demand, it's not NVC by definition. So respond NVC style: "When you say your need is to work as a team, I am confused as I do not understand how that is a need. Would you be willing to expand on that?" Or even more boldly: "When you say your need is to work as a team, I am confused as that sounds like a evaluation/judgement/narrative and not a need. Would you be willing to clarify your need?" (Judgements are a fundamental violation of NVC. If he's trying to manipulate you this way, call them out on it) "When I work late to finish the tickets, I am [exhausted/dissatisfied/insert-feeling-here] as I need rest. Would you explain what will go wrong if these tickets are addressed tomorrow?" The other NVC lesson I'd like you all to learn is that it is very explicit: You are not responsible for other's feelings. If your perception is the other party is offloading feelings on to you because they use NVC, understand that NVC itself tells you not to be burdened by it. The ideal is that you respond to people's feelings out of a sense of compassion, not out of obligation. And you're never wrong if you ignore their feelings (it's merely not ideal to do so).