5 ms·

> You live in a society where young people become addicts and rob and harm the people they love and then die prematurely. Let's not make grand sweeping stateme

> You live in a society where young people become addicts and rob and harm the people they love and then die prematurely. Let's not make grand sweeping statements about societies which you clearly don't have a huge practical experience with (or if you do, of which you are grandly exaggerating certain problem spots in order to make your point seem more emotionally critical).

jacquesm 5y ago
I actually do have practical experience with that society and it's actually not all that exaggerated, if it is exaggerated at all. NL has a drug problem, and has had a drug problem since the 70's or so. It's been worse than it is today, but even today school age children are approached on a regular basis by pushers, plenty of them end up as addicts and quite a few of them do end up on the wrong side of the law to the point that we have special programs to deal with this. None of our communities is immune from this, whether you live in Northern Groningen, Zeeland, Limburg, Gelderland or the Randstad, the problems are legion and so is the secondary fall out.
- incrudible 5y ago
  All societies have a drug problem. The only question is, which policy minimizes that problem while considering all related problems (pareto efficiency). There's no "one size fits all" solution.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Yes but you're talking about a country with ~ 0.6/100k murders per year The US average seems to be 5, worse cities can get to 20? 40? The problem exists but let's not take it out of proportion
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    That's fair, but we were discussing drugs, not murder per se, even though that is the core subject of the article in the end it is the direct result of the drug trade.
- lwn 5y ago
  I have practical experience with that society as well. And have children at school. I used to go to house-parties a lot in '90 and '00 and have first hand experience in the 'drug-scene'. What you are describing has happened in the 70's and 80's. Education, special programs and (semi-)legalising weed (soft drugs) had though most kids how to avoid addiction. Since then alcohol abuse is a far bigger problem amongst kids [source: https://www.trimbos.nl/kennis/cijfers/alcohol-drugs-roken-scholieren https://www.trimbos.nl/kennis/cijfers/alcohol-drugs-roken-sc...] Sure, drugs is being sold to kids. For recreational (weekend) use and not full-filling some addiction. So does that make it a drug-problem? From my point of view most kids know exactly what they are doing. Plus I haven't met a single dealer in NL which needed to resort to 'pushing drugs to kids' to sell his stash. So maybe your sons were asked to buy drugs, which is a very different situation. Thé most troublesome problem, involving drugs in NL is people slipping GHB into other people's drinks, to abuse them afterwards.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Colleague in Baarn: serious drug issues, one of the best schools in the region, unfortunately not an isolated case. Friends of my son, just out of school, similar situation different location(s). Other friends and their kids: multiple passes, dealers are either their school buddies trying to make some money on the side so they can buy fancy clothing or phones, or outsiders who are in it in a more professional capacity. NL has a drug problem, like it or not it doesn't really matter, it's there and if we pretend it isn't there it is certainly not going to be resolved.
  - whoaisme 5y ago
    "Sure, drugs is being sold to kids. For recreational (weekend) use and not full-filling some addiction. So does that make it a drug-problem? From my point of view most kids know exactly what they are doing." From my point of view, very few people know what they are doing, let alone children. Honestly you are ridiculous.
- the-dude 5y ago
  I am not aware of pushers and a drug problem among school age childeren in Groningen, do you happen to have sources? I can't remember a single article from the local paper. The biggest issue discussed in Groningen is lachgas ( nitrous oxide ). And alcohol. The drug problems from the 70's and 80's were mostly heroine, not seen as a problem anymore as most of the users have died out.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    You seem to be blisfully unaware of the world around you and have a set of opinions that is based on that limited experience. That's fine with me. Having lived in Drenthe (Exloo), Groningen, Amsterdam, Kortenhoef, Baarn, IJmuiden and probably a couple I forgot my personal take on this is that if your life has not been touched by the drug trade in NL that you should consider yourself charmed. Lachgas is a problem, but a very minor one in comparison to harder drugs, alcohol has been a problem for a lot longer than either harder drugs or soft drugs. Unfortunately Groningen is not an exception to any of this. As for sources, here is one: https://www.harendekrant.nl/nieuws/drugsdealer-learen-lees-meer/ https://www.harendekrant.nl/nieuws/drugsdealer-learen-lees-m... and I'm sure you'll find a reason to disqualify it but there is far more than this single article.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      I am living in Groningen center now for 10 years ( grew up in Haren ), your source is from 2015 and as far as I know, is not an incident as part of a broader problem of drug pushers to school going children. What should I google to find the 'far more' ? If I google 'drugs school groningen', I come up empty. If I google 'dealer school groningen', I come up with one article from 2017, minor incident, and best of all : that was my school. So were can I find far more?
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        I said I'm sure you will find fault with it. Predictable. Those 'minor incidents' are two a penny. Even at the better schools kids regularly use drugs. If you don't know about it or don't want to know about it then maybe stop extrapolating from your limited experience to the rest of NL. And good luck when/if you have kids in school, watch out from round about the age of 11.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jacquesm 5y ago

I actually do have practical experience with that society and it's actually not all that exaggerated, if it is exaggerated at all. NL has a drug problem, and has had a drug problem since the 70's or so. It's been worse than it is today, but even today school age children are approached on a regular basis by pushers, plenty of them end up as addicts and quite a few of them do end up on the wrong side of the law to the point that we have special programs to deal with this. None of our communities is immune from this, whether you live in Northern Groningen, Zeeland, Limburg, Gelderland or the Randstad, the problems are legion and so is the secondary fall out.

incrudible 5y ago
All societies have a drug problem. The only question is, which policy minimizes that problem while considering all related problems (pareto efficiency). There's no "one size fits all" solution.
raverbashing 5y ago
Yes but you're talking about a country with ~ 0.6/100k murders per year The US average seems to be 5, worse cities can get to 20? 40? The problem exists but let's not take it out of proportion
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That's fair, but we were discussing drugs, not murder per se, even though that is the core subject of the article in the end it is the direct result of the drug trade.
lwn 5y ago
I have practical experience with that society as well. And have children at school. I used to go to house-parties a lot in '90 and '00 and have first hand experience in the 'drug-scene'. What you are describing has happened in the 70's and 80's. Education, special programs and (semi-)legalising weed (soft drugs) had though most kids how to avoid addiction. Since then alcohol abuse is a far bigger problem amongst kids [source: https://www.trimbos.nl/kennis/cijfers/alcohol-drugs-roken-scholieren https://www.trimbos.nl/kennis/cijfers/alcohol-drugs-roken-sc...] Sure, drugs is being sold to kids. For recreational (weekend) use and not full-filling some addiction. So does that make it a drug-problem? From my point of view most kids know exactly what they are doing. Plus I haven't met a single dealer in NL which needed to resort to 'pushing drugs to kids' to sell his stash. So maybe your sons were asked to buy drugs, which is a very different situation. Thé most troublesome problem, involving drugs in NL is people slipping GHB into other people's drinks, to abuse them afterwards.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Colleague in Baarn: serious drug issues, one of the best schools in the region, unfortunately not an isolated case. Friends of my son, just out of school, similar situation different location(s). Other friends and their kids: multiple passes, dealers are either their school buddies trying to make some money on the side so they can buy fancy clothing or phones, or outsiders who are in it in a more professional capacity. NL has a drug problem, like it or not it doesn't really matter, it's there and if we pretend it isn't there it is certainly not going to be resolved.
- whoaisme 5y ago
  "Sure, drugs is being sold to kids. For recreational (weekend) use and not full-filling some addiction. So does that make it a drug-problem? From my point of view most kids know exactly what they are doing." From my point of view, very few people know what they are doing, let alone children. Honestly you are ridiculous.
the-dude 5y ago
I am not aware of pushers and a drug problem among school age childeren in Groningen, do you happen to have sources? I can't remember a single article from the local paper. The biggest issue discussed in Groningen is lachgas ( nitrous oxide ). And alcohol. The drug problems from the 70's and 80's were mostly heroine, not seen as a problem anymore as most of the users have died out.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jacquesm 5y ago
  You seem to be blisfully unaware of the world around you and have a set of opinions that is based on that limited experience. That's fine with me. Having lived in Drenthe (Exloo), Groningen, Amsterdam, Kortenhoef, Baarn, IJmuiden and probably a couple I forgot my personal take on this is that if your life has not been touched by the drug trade in NL that you should consider yourself charmed. Lachgas is a problem, but a very minor one in comparison to harder drugs, alcohol has been a problem for a lot longer than either harder drugs or soft drugs. Unfortunately Groningen is not an exception to any of this. As for sources, here is one: https://www.harendekrant.nl/nieuws/drugsdealer-learen-lees-meer/ https://www.harendekrant.nl/nieuws/drugsdealer-learen-lees-m... and I'm sure you'll find a reason to disqualify it but there is far more than this single article.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    I am living in Groningen center now for 10 years ( grew up in Haren ), your source is from 2015 and as far as I know, is not an incident as part of a broader problem of drug pushers to school going children. What should I google to find the 'far more' ? If I google 'drugs school groningen', I come up empty. If I google 'dealer school groningen', I come up with one article from 2017, minor incident, and best of all : that was my school. So were can I find far more?
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      I said I'm sure you will find fault with it. Predictable. Those 'minor incidents' are two a penny. Even at the better schools kids regularly use drugs. If you don't know about it or don't want to know about it then maybe stop extrapolating from your limited experience to the rest of NL. And good luck when/if you have kids in school, watch out from round about the age of 11.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]