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Article is really "minimum wage workers cannot afford a two-bedroom apartment while only spending the recommended 30% of their income on housing." There's a lo

Article is really "minimum wage workers cannot afford a two-bedroom apartment while only spending the recommended 30% of their income on housing." There's a lot of assumptions there. Assumes minimum wage workers should not have to get by with a single bedroom and a couch in their own place. Assumes minimum wage workers should not have to spend more than 30% of their income on housing. Now maybe that should be our policy. I just don't think the headline should be "can't afford rent" until we've made a concrete policy decision as a people that supports the premise that they should be able to afford it.

mrkurt 5y ago
You could rephrase it in your head as "single parent minimum wage worker can't afford housing" if it helps.
- randyrand 5y ago
  My grandmother grew up sharing a bed with her 5 siblings (3 vertical, 2 at the foot) and she is always quick to tell you how much she has enjoyed her life. The idea that kids need their own bedroom is extremely modern. There’s no reputable science behind it.
- wernercd 5y ago
  Or you could rephrase it as "made up numbers reinforce the made up fact that minimum wage workers can't afford to live anywhere in the us despite all facts to the contrary"... ... if it helps...
  - kristopolous 5y ago
    The keyword is "afford". Can it be paid for with enough money for other things in life? There's over 100 years of scholarship and research on this if you're interested. You can get college degrees, have careers in these related fields. American culture in general does not value and it's dismissive of it and that's probably why America's livibility metrics are so out of line with everyone else. (See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_livable_cities https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_livable_cities) Or why the life expectancy is lower, suicide is about the same rate as sub-saharan Africa, and polls of satisfaction and happiness perform worse, etc. Such problems can be addressed
    - wernercd 5y ago
      You can afford what you can afford. If that means you can't afford a 2 bedroom house? Then you can't. Maybe you should downsize, learn a new skill and do more to become more than worth minimum wage. There's also 100 years of research on how to pick up skills that aren't minimum skill and minimum wage. Problems can be address... but so can skewed ideas of what you deserve and what reality shows you're going to get. I grew up poor. I started with low-pay, low-skill jobs. I lived on couches and didn't have "2 bedroom apartments" because even before I got my college education I understood that not everyone can afford to live like that. Know what I did? That college degree I mentioned... I got a skill in demand and became more than a burger flipper and dish washer. The disconnect between our opinions is the expectation that you deserve a good life in a minimum wage job. People have been lied too that life is fair and that they deserve a minimum standard of life. I grew up with the expectation that I got what I earned and if I earned minimum wage? I got a lot less than a nice apartment.
      - whataremyvalues 5y ago
        The current status quo you are perpetuating can be described as crabs in a bucket. It may serve you well to learn about the values you are prioritizing. www.wamv.life is a tool that helps with self-awareness by measuring values, moods, and value utilization.
      - craftinator 5y ago
        > Know what I did? That college degree I mentioned... I got a skill in demand and became more than a burger flipper and dish washer. You got lucky. Like really, statistically, you were incredibly lucky. Good genetics, lack of disabilities dire enough to stop you from working, no medical emergencies serious enough to put you in permanent debt, and obviously received some decently schooling on the government's dime as a child if you just "got a skill in demand" and a "college degree". Yes, the hard work helped to captalize on all of the good luck you had, but it didn't create the circumstances that allowed you to succeed. So if your argument is "why should these people who are less fortunate than me be allowed to live decently?", the response should be "you should be that person living in squalor, but you lucked out".
- gnarbarian 5y ago
  well it's a good thing we have social safety nets then. because we do and that's exactly what they're for. side note: children are expensive and you probably shouldn't have them if you can't afford them
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > well it's a good thing we have social safety nets then. because we do and that's exactly what they're for. Not very strong ones when it comes to raising children. > side note: children are expensive and you probably shouldn't have them if you can't afford them Well it's definitely not a living wage if you can't have a child.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - gnarbarian 5y ago
      Is it a living wage if you can't afford a boat? This sounds like some serious scope creep to me.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        Well it doesn't say anything about boats in the universal declaration of human rights... You really think having a child or two is scope creep for the basic things every person should be able to do in their life without financial ruin?
  - jrsj 5y ago
    Well when I worked at McDonald’s my coworkers that had kids arguably had a higher standard of living than I did because of the government benefits, so maybe not
    - gnarbarian 5y ago
      This is kind of like a fiscal cliff.
- jrsj 5y ago
  That’s before government benefits though, of course. And it’s assuming that anyone is still paying minimum wage, when $13-$15 an hour has become practically the de facto minimum even here in small towns in Ohio
alex_young 5y ago
30% is a standard https://www.thebalance.com/what-percentage-of-your-income-should-go-to-rent-4688840 https://www.thebalance.com/what-percentage-of-your-income-sh... Edit: the same is true for mortgages. https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/how-much-to-spend-on-a-mortgage-based-on-salary/ https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/how-much-to-spen... Second edit: Feel free to have an actual conversation. Your downvotes are meaningless.
- qeternity 5y ago
  No, it’s a rule of thumb, for average middle class people. Minimum wage is not intended to support a family in a 2 bed apartment. People need to factor in cost of living when making decisions like having a family. The unfortunate reality is we already have too many people for the Earth to sustain. The population can’t keep growing.
  - alex_young 5y ago
    So we’re supposed to cap the population while allowing people of means to have more kids? That does not sound sustainable. See the French Revolution for details.
  - bravoetch 5y ago
    Are all minimum wage earners be pre-family and making a decision based on your personal rule-of-thumb? Reality is that people with families and bills to pay will end up with a minimum wage job after having a higher paying job, and it's not enough for them to support themselves. This isn't code, everything is not happening in the order you designed.
    - qeternity 5y ago
      > Reality is that people with families and bills to pay will end up with a minimum wage job after having a higher paying job, and it's not enough for them to support themselves. This is not common. But at the same time, we can’t optimize for tail risks. If your hypothetical occurs, and a family have to share a one bedroom, then so be it. People are subjected to far worse every day. Ultimately minimum wage cannot and should not be comfortable. There simply aren’t enough resources in the world for everyone to have everything.
Dylan16807 5y ago
> Assumes minimum wage workers should not have to get by with a single bedroom and a couch in their own place. I suppose we could have a discussion there. One bedroom is probably okay for one person, but we need to look at what happens when two adults try to have a child on full time minimum wage employment. > Assumes minimum wage workers should not have to spend more than 30% of their income on housing. A minimum wage worker is going to be the most squeezed by the costs of healthcare and food and transportation. So yeah I think that 30% rule needs to apply.
- culopatin 5y ago
  Two adults are ok with one bedroom. I lived as a kid in a one bedroom very tiny house with my parents and we had two beds in the bedroom. No life for them but they made it happen. No living room, the dining table was one chair away from the countertop, and at the other end of the table was the tv (21 in CRT that took half the space of the table). At one point we also added a computer desk lol! You can make it happen. I was a happy kid. Luckily we figured something out by the time I was 12 because it would’ve been too weird. Americans are used to luxury poverty. Where being poor still means having a car and a smartphone and consider two bedroom apartments a minimum. If you’re too poor to afford more room then maybe don’t have a kid. We need to stop ignoring this and start educating people instead of just feeling bad for them when they have 3 kids and a minimum wage job. Now, I’m not saying “don’t help them, this is fine”, I want everyone to live comfortably and have a fair wage. But I can’t agree with “it’s impossible”. Really it’s not that bad, but consumerism in the US makes everyone feel bad if they can’t buy unnecessary shit on amazon every month
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    Even if we go for one bedroom for one adult, that's not nearly enough to fix the affordability problem. > Americans are used to luxury poverty. Where being poor still means having a car and a smartphone and consider two bedroom apartments a minimum. In most places you need a car to get a job, so you pay for a car out of your wages whether you can afford it or not. A phone is also necessary but phones are really cheap and there are subsidies. That's not much of a luxury. And while two bedrooms for one person is a luxury, two bedrooms for a family isn't. > If you’re too poor to afford more room then maybe don’t have a kid. We need to stop ignoring this and start educating people instead of just feeling bad for them when they have 3 kids and a minimum wage job. Okay, what about two or just one kid? Even with two parents willing to work it can be crushingly expensive, in part because childcare can eat up a huge portion of someone's wages. Education is not the best solution. Making it so everyone can afford to have a child is the best solution.
trainsplanes 5y ago
You’re assuming that minimum wage workers aren’t supposed to have families that they provide for. Are they just supposed to leave kids on a couch?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cjensen 5y ago
  It's incorrect to say I'm "assuming" that. I tried very hard to steer clear of making any assumptions or expressing my own views in my comment. I definitely did not make that particular assumption. There is, however, one assumption I did make: there is no stated policy that min wage workers should be able to afford all that while spending 30% or less. If I'm wrong and there is a stated policy, I would like to be corrected.
Aunche 5y ago
From their study, they also use the 40th percentile of rent, which manipulates their results to their favor as well. Also, roommates are a thing. It's absurd to suggest that everyone, even minimum wage workers, should be entitled to their own private kitchen, bathroom, and living room, let alone an extra bedroom on top of it. Americans rank among the highest in living space per Capita, so we spend emit a lot of CO2 heating and cooling spaces that we're not even inside.
- craftinator 5y ago
  > Americans rank among the highest in living space per Capita, so we spend emit a lot of CO2 heating and cooling spaces that we're not even inside. Well, I've known quite a few lower class, paycheck to paycheck families, and they would NEVER run an AC or heater without someone in the room. Poor people aren't the reason all that CO2 is being emitted, it's the people with multiple houses.
  - blooalien 5y ago
    > "Poor people aren't the reason all that CO2 is being emitted, it's the people with multiple houses." You're not alone in that view. → [1] [1] https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/the-worlds-richest-people-also-emit-the-most-carbon https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/the-worlds-richest-people-also-e...
  - Aunche 5y ago
    I'm not criticizing poor people, as they do live with roommates. I'm criticizing the people like the author of this article who assume that every worker should be entitled to their own one or two-bed apartment.
    - craftinator 5y ago
      Ah I'm sorry, I misinterpreted your comment, there are some really nasty thoughts being submitted in this thread and approached yours that way. I apologize.

mrkurt 5y ago

You could rephrase it in your head as "single parent minimum wage worker can't afford housing" if it helps.

randyrand 5y ago
My grandmother grew up sharing a bed with her 5 siblings (3 vertical, 2 at the foot) and she is always quick to tell you how much she has enjoyed her life. The idea that kids need their own bedroom is extremely modern. There’s no reputable science behind it.
wernercd 5y ago
Or you could rephrase it as "made up numbers reinforce the made up fact that minimum wage workers can't afford to live anywhere in the us despite all facts to the contrary"... ... if it helps...
- kristopolous 5y ago
  The keyword is "afford". Can it be paid for with enough money for other things in life? There's over 100 years of scholarship and research on this if you're interested. You can get college degrees, have careers in these related fields. American culture in general does not value and it's dismissive of it and that's probably why America's livibility metrics are so out of line with everyone else. (See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_livable_cities https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_livable_cities) Or why the life expectancy is lower, suicide is about the same rate as sub-saharan Africa, and polls of satisfaction and happiness perform worse, etc. Such problems can be addressed
  - wernercd 5y ago
    You can afford what you can afford. If that means you can't afford a 2 bedroom house? Then you can't. Maybe you should downsize, learn a new skill and do more to become more than worth minimum wage. There's also 100 years of research on how to pick up skills that aren't minimum skill and minimum wage. Problems can be address... but so can skewed ideas of what you deserve and what reality shows you're going to get. I grew up poor. I started with low-pay, low-skill jobs. I lived on couches and didn't have "2 bedroom apartments" because even before I got my college education I understood that not everyone can afford to live like that. Know what I did? That college degree I mentioned... I got a skill in demand and became more than a burger flipper and dish washer. The disconnect between our opinions is the expectation that you deserve a good life in a minimum wage job. People have been lied too that life is fair and that they deserve a minimum standard of life. I grew up with the expectation that I got what I earned and if I earned minimum wage? I got a lot less than a nice apartment.
    - whataremyvalues 5y ago
      The current status quo you are perpetuating can be described as crabs in a bucket. It may serve you well to learn about the values you are prioritizing. www.wamv.life is a tool that helps with self-awareness by measuring values, moods, and value utilization.
    - craftinator 5y ago
      > Know what I did? That college degree I mentioned... I got a skill in demand and became more than a burger flipper and dish washer. You got lucky. Like really, statistically, you were incredibly lucky. Good genetics, lack of disabilities dire enough to stop you from working, no medical emergencies serious enough to put you in permanent debt, and obviously received some decently schooling on the government's dime as a child if you just "got a skill in demand" and a "college degree". Yes, the hard work helped to captalize on all of the good luck you had, but it didn't create the circumstances that allowed you to succeed. So if your argument is "why should these people who are less fortunate than me be allowed to live decently?", the response should be "you should be that person living in squalor, but you lucked out".
gnarbarian 5y ago
well it's a good thing we have social safety nets then. because we do and that's exactly what they're for. side note: children are expensive and you probably shouldn't have them if you can't afford them
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > well it's a good thing we have social safety nets then. because we do and that's exactly what they're for. Not very strong ones when it comes to raising children. > side note: children are expensive and you probably shouldn't have them if you can't afford them Well it's definitely not a living wage if you can't have a child.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - gnarbarian 5y ago
    Is it a living wage if you can't afford a boat? This sounds like some serious scope creep to me.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      Well it doesn't say anything about boats in the universal declaration of human rights... You really think having a child or two is scope creep for the basic things every person should be able to do in their life without financial ruin?
- jrsj 5y ago
  Well when I worked at McDonald’s my coworkers that had kids arguably had a higher standard of living than I did because of the government benefits, so maybe not
  - gnarbarian 5y ago
    This is kind of like a fiscal cliff.
jrsj 5y ago
That’s before government benefits though, of course. And it’s assuming that anyone is still paying minimum wage, when $13-$15 an hour has become practically the de facto minimum even here in small towns in Ohio

alex_young 5y ago

30% is a standard https://www.thebalance.com/what-percentage-of-your-income-should-go-to-rent-4688840 https://www.thebalance.com/what-percentage-of-your-income-sh... Edit: the same is true for mortgages. https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/how-much-to-spend-on-a-mortgage-based-on-salary/ https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/how-much-to-spen... Second edit: Feel free to have an actual conversation. Your downvotes are meaningless.

qeternity 5y ago
No, it’s a rule of thumb, for average middle class people. Minimum wage is not intended to support a family in a 2 bed apartment. People need to factor in cost of living when making decisions like having a family. The unfortunate reality is we already have too many people for the Earth to sustain. The population can’t keep growing.
- alex_young 5y ago
  So we’re supposed to cap the population while allowing people of means to have more kids? That does not sound sustainable. See the French Revolution for details.
- bravoetch 5y ago
  Are all minimum wage earners be pre-family and making a decision based on your personal rule-of-thumb? Reality is that people with families and bills to pay will end up with a minimum wage job after having a higher paying job, and it's not enough for them to support themselves. This isn't code, everything is not happening in the order you designed.
  - qeternity 5y ago
    > Reality is that people with families and bills to pay will end up with a minimum wage job after having a higher paying job, and it's not enough for them to support themselves. This is not common. But at the same time, we can’t optimize for tail risks. If your hypothetical occurs, and a family have to share a one bedroom, then so be it. People are subjected to far worse every day. Ultimately minimum wage cannot and should not be comfortable. There simply aren’t enough resources in the world for everyone to have everything.

Dylan16807 5y ago

> Assumes minimum wage workers should not have to get by with a single bedroom and a couch in their own place. I suppose we could have a discussion there. One bedroom is probably okay for one person, but we need to look at what happens when two adults try to have a child on full time minimum wage employment. > Assumes minimum wage workers should not have to spend more than 30% of their income on housing. A minimum wage worker is going to be the most squeezed by the costs of healthcare and food and transportation. So yeah I think that 30% rule needs to apply.

culopatin 5y ago
Two adults are ok with one bedroom. I lived as a kid in a one bedroom very tiny house with my parents and we had two beds in the bedroom. No life for them but they made it happen. No living room, the dining table was one chair away from the countertop, and at the other end of the table was the tv (21 in CRT that took half the space of the table). At one point we also added a computer desk lol! You can make it happen. I was a happy kid. Luckily we figured something out by the time I was 12 because it would’ve been too weird. Americans are used to luxury poverty. Where being poor still means having a car and a smartphone and consider two bedroom apartments a minimum. If you’re too poor to afford more room then maybe don’t have a kid. We need to stop ignoring this and start educating people instead of just feeling bad for them when they have 3 kids and a minimum wage job. Now, I’m not saying “don’t help them, this is fine”, I want everyone to live comfortably and have a fair wage. But I can’t agree with “it’s impossible”. Really it’s not that bad, but consumerism in the US makes everyone feel bad if they can’t buy unnecessary shit on amazon every month
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  Even if we go for one bedroom for one adult, that's not nearly enough to fix the affordability problem. > Americans are used to luxury poverty. Where being poor still means having a car and a smartphone and consider two bedroom apartments a minimum. In most places you need a car to get a job, so you pay for a car out of your wages whether you can afford it or not. A phone is also necessary but phones are really cheap and there are subsidies. That's not much of a luxury. And while two bedrooms for one person is a luxury, two bedrooms for a family isn't. > If you’re too poor to afford more room then maybe don’t have a kid. We need to stop ignoring this and start educating people instead of just feeling bad for them when they have 3 kids and a minimum wage job. Okay, what about two or just one kid? Even with two parents willing to work it can be crushingly expensive, in part because childcare can eat up a huge portion of someone's wages. Education is not the best solution. Making it so everyone can afford to have a child is the best solution.

trainsplanes 5y ago

You’re assuming that minimum wage workers aren’t supposed to have families that they provide for. Are they just supposed to leave kids on a couch?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cjensen 5y ago
It's incorrect to say I'm "assuming" that. I tried very hard to steer clear of making any assumptions or expressing my own views in my comment. I definitely did not make that particular assumption. There is, however, one assumption I did make: there is no stated policy that min wage workers should be able to afford all that while spending 30% or less. If I'm wrong and there is a stated policy, I would like to be corrected.

Aunche 5y ago

From their study, they also use the 40th percentile of rent, which manipulates their results to their favor as well. Also, roommates are a thing. It's absurd to suggest that everyone, even minimum wage workers, should be entitled to their own private kitchen, bathroom, and living room, let alone an extra bedroom on top of it. Americans rank among the highest in living space per Capita, so we spend emit a lot of CO2 heating and cooling spaces that we're not even inside.

craftinator 5y ago
> Americans rank among the highest in living space per Capita, so we spend emit a lot of CO2 heating and cooling spaces that we're not even inside. Well, I've known quite a few lower class, paycheck to paycheck families, and they would NEVER run an AC or heater without someone in the room. Poor people aren't the reason all that CO2 is being emitted, it's the people with multiple houses.
- blooalien 5y ago
  > "Poor people aren't the reason all that CO2 is being emitted, it's the people with multiple houses." You're not alone in that view. → [1] [1] https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/the-worlds-richest-people-also-emit-the-most-carbon https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/the-worlds-richest-people-also-e...
- Aunche 5y ago
  I'm not criticizing poor people, as they do live with roommates. I'm criticizing the people like the author of this article who assume that every worker should be entitled to their own one or two-bed apartment.
  - craftinator 5y ago
    Ah I'm sorry, I misinterpreted your comment, there are some really nasty thoughts being submitted in this thread and approached yours that way. I apologize.