5 ms·

Yeah I mean, this is the claim / supposition: this isn't new, it's just not hidden anymore. But I think it's worth questioning whether the supposition is true

Yeah I mean, this is the claim / supposition: this isn't new, it's just not hidden anymore. But I think it's worth questioning whether the supposition is true or not, and not in the sense of "can I think of any examples of a dysfunctional family being exposed now that would not have been back then?" because when you're talking about a large population you can find examples of pretty much anything (including that a lot of dysfunction that would not have been tolerated in the past is now flying under the radar). Rather the right question (according to me) is: what are the broad trends of what is actually happening to hundreds of millions of people and what are some of the factors driving the trends?

kenjackson 5y ago
The three biggest things I’ve seen cause estrangement are: 1. Coming out. I suspect that gay people always existed, but just didn’t come out. 2. Interracial relationships. Far less common in the past. And society doesn’t view them as negatively now, which changes the power balance. 3. Parental affairs. I suspect this is the one that always happened, but people just lived with it more. From my anecdotal list the problems are actually new. And except for the third, likely to get better.
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  4. Abuse. Did you mean they aren't actually new?
  - dktoao 5y ago
    I think they meant that their examples are things that would have been "shoved under the rug" or hidden in the past and are no longer taboo. If you were gay in 1900 you hid it, if you are gay in 2020 you are out (usually). Abuse may consist of a lot of things, but using physical abuse as an example. If you beat your kids (more than just spanking) in 1900 it was still taboo (but maybe less so)
    - vkou 5y ago
      I think your view of the past is colored by 21-st century social norms. In 1900, a husband beating his wife wasn't even illegal in most of the world. [1] Beating children and other animals would barely even register as unusual. [1] It wasn't practically illegal in most of the US, both on the state & federal level until the late 20th century - https://www.cji.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/domestic_abuse_report.pdf https://www.cji.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/domestic_abus...
      - dash2 5y ago
        But beating your kids or wife - again, in the "more than just spanking" sense of physical abuse - was often punished informally. Working-class communities had clear senses of the relevant boundaries (though again those wouldn't be the same as our boundaries necessarily) and institutions like the Charivari to support them. (Google "Rough music".)
  - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
    Huge agreement on including abuse. It's hard to make this question grounded in data, but here's an anecdote I do think is accurate. My grandfather was a horrific man. He died of complications due to alcoholism before I was born. That said, I've heard a lot about just what he was like, including from people outside the family. I've also seen 16mm film footage of him at family holidays, and it's shockingly clear every single other person in the room is straight up terrified of his potential temper. I'm not exaggerating on this point. I think he must have had something going very, very, wrong inside that skull. My grandmother, who otherwise was a fiercely independent woman, stayed with him despite the abuse. My Dad, hitchhiked to Mexico one summer to escape him, but otherwise still tried to be the good son. Why? Why not just divorce/disown the asshole? The norms against that half a century ago were so much stronger. I do think that's an important shift that's happened recently. There's still plenty of people that stay in a bad situation due to loyalty, but the stigma, in the sense of victim blaming, has definitely eroded within my lifetime. This is a very good thing in my book, even if it looks like a decay of society to some idiots.
    - tw04 5y ago
      It was more socially normal because an entire generation experienced the horrors of WW2. I'm not saying that makes the behavior ok, but it sure made it a lot easier for families to empathise. My grandpa wasn't an alcoholic but he was a giant asshole until about mid-70s when he started softening up.
      - kwyjobojoe 5y ago
        It's probably because baby boomers were the generation most effected by lead poisoning. Their children don't have the associated brain damaged that causes the impulse control, lack of reasoning and irrational anger, and they see their parents as damaged goods and interacting with them has too many negatives to make it worth while.
  - seattle_spring 5y ago
    I think verbal abuse in particular is getting more deserved attention than it has in the past.
- thebiss 5y ago
  5. Addiction Adultery, abuse, and addiction are not new.

kenjackson 5y ago

The three biggest things I’ve seen cause estrangement are: 1. Coming out. I suspect that gay people always existed, but just didn’t come out. 2. Interracial relationships. Far less common in the past. And society doesn’t view them as negatively now, which changes the power balance. 3. Parental affairs. I suspect this is the one that always happened, but people just lived with it more. From my anecdotal list the problems are actually new. And except for the third, likely to get better.

pseudalopex 5y ago
4. Abuse. Did you mean they aren't actually new?
- dktoao 5y ago
  I think they meant that their examples are things that would have been "shoved under the rug" or hidden in the past and are no longer taboo. If you were gay in 1900 you hid it, if you are gay in 2020 you are out (usually). Abuse may consist of a lot of things, but using physical abuse as an example. If you beat your kids (more than just spanking) in 1900 it was still taboo (but maybe less so)
  - vkou 5y ago
    I think your view of the past is colored by 21-st century social norms. In 1900, a husband beating his wife wasn't even illegal in most of the world. [1] Beating children and other animals would barely even register as unusual. [1] It wasn't practically illegal in most of the US, both on the state & federal level until the late 20th century - https://www.cji.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/domestic_abuse_report.pdf https://www.cji.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/domestic_abus...
    - dash2 5y ago
      But beating your kids or wife - again, in the "more than just spanking" sense of physical abuse - was often punished informally. Working-class communities had clear senses of the relevant boundaries (though again those wouldn't be the same as our boundaries necessarily) and institutions like the Charivari to support them. (Google "Rough music".)
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  Huge agreement on including abuse. It's hard to make this question grounded in data, but here's an anecdote I do think is accurate. My grandfather was a horrific man. He died of complications due to alcoholism before I was born. That said, I've heard a lot about just what he was like, including from people outside the family. I've also seen 16mm film footage of him at family holidays, and it's shockingly clear every single other person in the room is straight up terrified of his potential temper. I'm not exaggerating on this point. I think he must have had something going very, very, wrong inside that skull. My grandmother, who otherwise was a fiercely independent woman, stayed with him despite the abuse. My Dad, hitchhiked to Mexico one summer to escape him, but otherwise still tried to be the good son. Why? Why not just divorce/disown the asshole? The norms against that half a century ago were so much stronger. I do think that's an important shift that's happened recently. There's still plenty of people that stay in a bad situation due to loyalty, but the stigma, in the sense of victim blaming, has definitely eroded within my lifetime. This is a very good thing in my book, even if it looks like a decay of society to some idiots.
  - tw04 5y ago
    It was more socially normal because an entire generation experienced the horrors of WW2. I'm not saying that makes the behavior ok, but it sure made it a lot easier for families to empathise. My grandpa wasn't an alcoholic but he was a giant asshole until about mid-70s when he started softening up.
    - kwyjobojoe 5y ago
      It's probably because baby boomers were the generation most effected by lead poisoning. Their children don't have the associated brain damaged that causes the impulse control, lack of reasoning and irrational anger, and they see their parents as damaged goods and interacting with them has too many negatives to make it worth while.
- seattle_spring 5y ago
  I think verbal abuse in particular is getting more deserved attention than it has in the past.
thebiss 5y ago
5. Addiction Adultery, abuse, and addiction are not new.