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Assertiveness is a virtue that anyone can develop with practice

267 points by arkj 5y ago

paulpauper 5y ago
I would like to become more assertive but I find that just complying makes the problem go away faster and is easier. I say yes way too often but it s easier often than trying to stand my ground. Assertiveness can work better if you have a position of authority
- browningstreet 5y ago
  The path to positions of authority is often paved by diligent applications of assertiveness.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - galfarragem 5y ago
    Spot on comment. It distills many books on leadership in one sentence. Thank you.
- jameal 5y ago
  It might be helpful to think of assertiveness as a communication style rather than a problem-solving method. I like this definition: >Assertiveness is a communication style where you can express your thoughts and feelings in an open manner that doesn't violate the rights of others. You can't control how the other person responds or how the situation will play out, but you have the right to be assertive. People who aren't good with assertiveness tend to have lower self-esteem[^1], so if there is a problem assertiveness solves, it is more related to our relationship to ourselves than with any external problem. [^1]: https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/~/media/CCI/Consumer-Modules/Assert-Yourself/Assert-Yourself---01---What-is-Assertiveness.pdf https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/~/media/CCI/Consumer-Module...
samsolomon 5y ago
I would love to see some suggestions on books or videos for assertiveness training. I saw the book suggestion "When I Say No I Feel Guilty" below and would love to hear any others the community has.
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  Here's a non-Amazon link to a very popular text: https://www.powells.com/book/nonviolent-communication-9781892005021 https://www.powells.com/book/nonviolent-communication-978189... Also, this book is questionable because of certain phrases and perspectives, but I enjoyed it because it is an attempt to boost confidence (another non-Amazon link): https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/no-more-mr-nice-guy-robert-a-glover/1121663068 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/no-more-mr-nice-guy-robert-... I think the author of this book wrote it specifically for angry right-wing types who think therapy is a weakness, because inside the book is hidden messages of self-acceptance and assertiveness wrapped up in tough-guy sounding language.
- jameal 5y ago
  A few years ago I stumbled on and worked through [this excellent content on assertiveness](https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/Resources/Looking-After-Yourself/Assertiveness https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/Resources/Looking-After-You...) offered free of charge by a government health agency in Western Australia. It's includes methods for practical application and prompts for reflection. There are 10 PDF modules: 1. What is Assertiveness? 2. How to Recognise Assertive Behaviour 3. How to Think More Assertively 4. How to Behave More Assertively 5. Reducing Physical Tension 6. How to Say “No” Assertively 7. How to Deal Assertively with Criticism 8. How to Deal with Disappointment Assertively 9. How to Give and Receive Compliments Assertively 10. Putting it All Together It was incredibly beneficial for me and I'd highly recommend giving it a shot.
Taylor_OD 5y ago
Yup. The majority of leaders I know are just average people who are more comfortable being assertive. Often aggressively to shut down nay sayers. Listen in meetings and hear how the people talking are normally not the most correct or the right ones but the most assertive.
- staunch 5y ago
  Sure, most leaders are bad leaders. They're assertive enough to get promoted but too stupid/ignorant/mean/lazy to actually lead well. Good leaders, by definition, are the kind of people that will elevate the voices of the non-assertive-but-right people.
  - Taylor_OD 5y ago
    Yup. This is often why smaller companies are dominated by poor leaders as well. There may not be many that many other voices and the non assertive people realize they are not being valued and leave or they don't join to begin with. The later I get in my career the more I realize I care a lot about who my manager will be.
antonzabirko 5y ago
It's not a virtue
asah 5y ago
Successful assertiveness is a learned skill. successful assertiveness = speaking up (at the right time, being articulate, tone, etc) successful assertiveness = being heard (not just speaking) successful assertiveness = being prioritized (not just bl adding to the noise) successful assertiveness = not being penalized / oostracized (so next time you're heard+prioritized) successful != ambition, promotion, raises etc successful != hurting others
factorialboy 5y ago
Assertiveness fundamentally is just clarity of thought. Everybody has experienced that at one point or another. Given enough experience or training, you can fake it. But nothing beats the real thing. Achieve clarity of thought in whatever you do, and assertiveness and other positive traits will follow. Practicing assertiveness without achieving clarity of thought is just disaster delayed slightly thanks to technique.
zen_alchemist 5y ago
I agree.
mypalmike 5y ago
Some good advice here. But the author sure works hard to needlessly connect it to her background in philosophy, and to Aristotle in particular.
hcrisp 5y ago
The story in the article about not knowing how to conclude a conversation reminds me of a tip my brother-in-law gave me. He is a teacher, though a bit introverted, and he said he had problems wrapping up conversations during parent-teacher meetings. Some people just couldn't take a hint. Then he found that by saying, "Ok!" , while simultaneously slapping his palms on his lap (as if about to get up) would jolt everyone into wrap-up mode. I've tried this, and it mostly works. People respond to nonverbal communication (which is apparently more effective than verbal) quite well.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  Yes! Reminds me of how my great uncle used to talk and talk and talk after family reunions until one time, I sat there and I think did exactly that, I slapped my hands on my lap, said, "Ok! I'm tired, I'm gonna head to sleep." And he seemed to snap out of his story and we all got up to go to bed. I had been feeling frustrated because he just kept going and my parents had been falling asleep but no one said anything. I agree nonverbals can often help by themselves or even as a starter to more verbal communication in these situations. Thanks for posting this :-) *edit: and my great uncle wasn't trying to harm us, he just liked to talk and probably just got caught up in the moment, not realizing how much he was talking :-)
danuker 5y ago
You'd be surprised how many people open up for your influence, when you "Seek first to understand, then to be understood". Thinking through their problems as well as yours helps come up with a better solution for both of you. All of Covey's advice resonated with me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_7_Habits_of_Highly_Effective_People#5_-_Seek_first_to_understand,_then_to_be_understood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_7_Habits_of_Highly_Effecti...
wombatmobile 5y ago
A great place to practice assertiveness is at home. If an unsolicited person knocks on your door, to sell you a product or a religion, here’s your chance. It’s your sandbox. Assert your right to privacy. Same if you get junk mail in your mailbox that prominently displays a sign “NO JUNK MAIL”. Call them. Ask to speak to the person who put illegal advertising in your mailbox. When they blame it on the deliverer, say “Do you realise you are legally responsible for any illegal action you pay someone else to perform?” Awkward questions are a great way to be assertive. You never have to be rude - just persist with questions that have revealing answers.
- _manifold 5y ago
  > Same if you get junk mail in your mailbox that prominently displays a sign “NO JUNK MAIL”. Call them. Ask to speak to the person who put illegal advertising in your mailbox. When they blame it on the deliverer, say “Do you realise you are legally responsible for any illegal action you pay someone else to perform?” Asking barbed, rhetorical questions to a stranger over the phone isn't "being assertive", especially when the person you're speaking to most likely has little to no control over the thing you are complaining about. To quote The Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole!"
  - z3ncyberpunk 5y ago
    So is the person/company who illegally puts junk mail into a person's mailbox which has been clearly marked with no soliciting.
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    Why would anyone do that to someone who has little or no control over the thing they are complaining about? That would be a waste of everybody's time. First, ask for the name of the person responsible for the thing you want to talk about. Then ask to speak to that person by name.
AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
From personal experience: I thought my lack of assertiveness came from the lack of self-confidence. But once my self confidence got fixed (which is a whole separate story), it turned out assertiveness is rarely needed. The fine art of not giving a shit trumps all other virtues.
- errantmind 5y ago
  Agreed. Not feeling obligated to care is a valuable way to moderate overreaching requests. This is different than apathy, as it is not a nihilistic impulse. Instead it is a refusal agree to the implicit premise of level of 'importance'. Some people will be offended at this as not taking their request as seriously as they are but it can be expressed in such a way as to say "No, I'd like to be helpful but I have other priorities which require my attention". Or "No, I'd like to be helpful but this is outside the scope of my responsibilities".
- rufus_foreman 5y ago
  >> The fine art of not giving a shit trumps all other virtues. That's pretty much where I'm at. Assertiveness might be needed once in a while but if it's some sort of daily thing for you there's probably something not right in your life. It's like in Caddyshack when Carl thinks the groundskeeper is asking him to kill all the golfers on the course so he has to start to push back a little bit but when he figures out that its just gophers instead of golfers he's OK with it, "We can do that. We don't even need a reason". That's my attitude towards product managers these days. Sure, we don't even need a reason. They come to me with some poorly thought out unspecced idea that doesn't make much business sense or solve any problem that anyone has ever had, so OK, you know what team? We're gonna ship some fucking code.
jancsika 5y ago
> Perhaps she’d say: ‘Let me get back to you tomorrow about that,’ or: ‘Ask me again in a week.’ I think that example isn't strong enough to register as assertiveness. Assertiveness looks something like this: Someone asked me once if I'd be interested in being the musical director at a church. My response was something like: "I have zero interest in doing that. You know, before Phyllis died she'd seen me politely brushing off an offer to 'fill in' for the organist for an unspecified number of Sundays, for an unspecified amount of money. Phyllis pulled me aside after that and said, 'Don't you ever take a position with a church. The politics are vicious. They will eat you alive.' It was hilarious at the time but she was absolutely serious and I've taken it to heart." That typically works because most people in life have been tasked by either circumstances or other people to suggest a course of action or sell you on something. Your assertion actually gives them some relief because they can stop selling. In this case, we immediately switched to gossiping about vicious church politics for the next few minutes. The difficult thing is to do something like that for the first time. It may feel a bit like jumping out of the plane when skydiving because you have no frame of reference for what will happen next. The key is to reflect ahead of time on a few key preferences you have-- when the time comes, just barrel through and force yourself to make a decision based on that preference. Once done, notice in the aftermath and days after that nothing bad actually happened. It's revelatory-- future moments of low willpower feel like momentary slip ups (or perhaps just reasonable compromises) rather than a complete lack of agency. Edit: clarification
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  Your response was sharp for no reason if they weren't responsible for the situation. And too indirect if they were. "Thanks. But I'm not interested. Someone warned me the politics are vicious. Please don't ask again."
  - strogonoff 5y ago
    Based on how it reads, your counterexample might sound significantly harsher, especially with the closing sentence. The original example establishes shared context, evokes empathy and ultimately brings the participants closer; yours in fact increases distance (pro tip: counter-intuitively, “thanks” and “please” very much work to that effect). From the strength of the original example, of course, comes its weakness: the context, reflection, time, initial degree of familiarity/rapport that it requires mean it can’t possibly help if dozens of [semi-]strangers approach you about the same thing every week. It also assumes that you want to firmly deny the offer, but remain willing to associate in some way with the person making it.
toomanyducks 5y ago
I mean I've read some of the Aristotle mentioned, and I think it's a very and unservingly individualistic approach. The bits that I read took into account your effects on others, but not others' effects on you, aside from the mention of teaching. If we accept that individual virtues are the determining factors of morality, we can't really ask any questions about the effect of others on my own morality, which, in my opinion and experience, is pretty important too. So yeah, be assertive and all, but Aristotle feels like the wrong place to root an analysis of inter-personal interaction.
whataremyvalues 5y ago
IMO Assertiveness is not a virtue but a behavior. It's a behavior that is not beneficial for every person. Neurodiversity requires flexibility of social systems in order to thrive and facilitate innovation. When a social system contains a large bias for assertive behavior then the participants of that system may overvalue the behavior and react to individuals that lack assertiveness as lesser (recognition of environmentally favored behaviors.) When character values are aligned in behavior and attitudes then the assertive behavior can manifest with different motives. In the article the author tells a story of their character decisions when choosing to accomplish their goals through stimulating activity (writing their document with a deadline) or focus their attention on the needs of a member of their group (benevolence and conformity.) The internal dilemma the author went through was the misalignment of their behavior and motives (cognitive dissonance.) "But I couldn’t imagine myself saying those things. I wasn’t that sort of person, and everyone knew it." The author's solution is to focus on protecting themselves (Safety, a conservation life focus.) "You can’t stop people making demands on your time and energy, but you can develop the skills to protect yourself" I urge the author to escape the group mentality that feels safe and explore uncomfortable social environments with the objective of increasing awareness of what matters most to them, not just in theory but in practicality.
supergirl 5y ago
news: everything can be developed with practice. being successful is 90% work and 10% opportunity.
wildmanxx 5y ago
> All-or-nothing thinking – which psychologists call ‘splitting’ – is a symptom of certain personality disorders. And yet it permeates American culture right through its core. With me or against me. Good or bad. Right or wrong. Amazing or horrible. Left or right. Freedom or communism. No compromise. As a corollary, I wonder if it follows that the American culture counts as a personality disorder. (Let the downvotes come!)
markus_zhang 5y ago
When you reach a certain age e.g. 40 you start to realize that you only need to appeal for yourself and no one else matters including you family members. And then suddenly everything goes much better from there.
- underwater 5y ago
  I assume you mean parents and siblings, as opposed to spouse and children?
  - markus_zhang 5y ago
    Everyone. You have to be happy if you want your kid and wife to be happy. Otherwise one just becomes some grumpy husband that everyone tries to avoid. Individual->Family->Company/Organization/State, I believe that's the way it works. You have to take care of the things on left side to make the things on the right side to feel "happy".
mcguire 5y ago
"You can’t stop people making demands on your time and energy, but you can develop the skills to protect yourself..." Wouldn't it be nice if the article had at least identified those skills?
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  The article did make a start, when it suggested ‘Let me get back to you tomorrow about that,’ or: ‘Ask me again in a week.’ Are you wondering what comes next? Perhaps you're dreading being hectored or criticised in response? Don't worry. There are ways to overcome that. Here's one key paradigm that will make you bulletproof against anyone's unreasonable overture, comment or passive aggression: "Don't let it in." How? Watch this. If what Marisa Peer says resonates with you at all, watch it over and over again. After a few times, you'll learn the words by heart. A few more times and the emotional intelligence of it will be imprinted on your psyche so effectively, your answer will be automatic. Practice and you will be free. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeDt9dgFXFk&t=18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeDt9dgFXFk&t=18s
Thorentis 5y ago
From the article: > Women have more trouble with assertiveness than men do: a study by the Gender Action Portal at Harvard University found that, in salary negotiations, women concede earlier than men, anticipate greater backlash, and are discouraged by others’ perceptions of assertiveness as a non-feminine trait. Suspected this was the case for a while. Any time somebody mentions the "gender pay gap" I'll remind them of this.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
In my experience, assertiveness in of itself isn't a virtue, but knowing specifically who you can be assertive with. For instance, some random middle manager that is making things up about a problem they want you to deal with but sound like they're doing their job. In reality looks like a complete moron on your teams end and don't even understand what they're talking about. Also, the obligatory cc everyone involved cya tactic. These people you don't want to be assertive to. You want to milk them, play dumb, and make them feel like they're always right? You know why? These are the ego driven "mommy and daddy never told me I was wrong" types that will rat you out with every fiber of their being because they think they're entitled it. It's best you make them think you are so incompetent that they don't want to work with you in general. The kicker is, you need to have many of your team members and managers on your side vouch for you. That way when they tattle on you, you've got a solid defense that will fly back in their face to stfu and deal with it. It's pretty disingenuous and sociopathic, but in order to not get walked all over, sometimes you gotta humble yourself to save yourself some stress. Not like a company is gonna fire you cause some Karen doesn't understand the complexity of some programming thing but demands you solve the technical problem asap.
junon 5y ago
I am an assertive person. Believe me when I say it is not a virtue. It doesn't earn you much in practice.
naveen99 5y ago
thinkers like to assert vs feelers prefer to go with the flow. Introverts vs extroverts. women can be more assertive in some areas (aka swipe left). It’s hard to be assertive when you don’t know what you want , or you don’t know which course of action maximizes what you want… she didn’t know what she wanted more (be helpful to her colleague, or do her work). Or she didn’t know what would be better for her career… altruism frequently involves this problem. practice asserting to pay the restaurant bill… (what’s more valuable ? The good will gained or the money lost ?)
dijit 5y ago
This is definitely true. I was given assertiveness training when I was a young boy- I had a troubled time and was put through the training with other trouble makers. It really changed me, I went from being an anxious and shy person to being a generally motivated and quite confident person. Which, is strange given that assertiveness training is mostly identifying assertive behaviour as it differs from aggressive or non-direct behaviour. It doesn’t (or didn’t) force you to be assertive, but identifying it leads you to understanding that you can _be_ assertive.
addflip 5y ago
This is an essential skill for everyone to learn. The article lightly touches on how to learn to be more assertive. If you want a more thorough guide I highly recommend the book, When I Say No I Feel Guilty.
softwaredoug 5y ago
With trusted people, I find its best to default to a non-violent communication style[1]. Express your feelings with "I" statements, etc. "I'm feeling X". Believe the other side has positive intent (ie 'hanlons razor'). Express the 2-way nature, and understand feelings can arise for many reason that may not be anyones fault. Recently I had a conversation with to a colleague where I expressed their earlier perceived 'pressure' made me feel my relationship with them was "transactional". And I felt like my value was about the work I did, not me as a person. I reiterated throughout I didn't think it was their intention. I expressed that this has as much to do with my personality & baggage with how I perceive comments that might not bother others. I didn't do it perfectly (this is a hard skill to cultivate). But... we left with a better way to communicate. "OK Doug reacts to X statements a bit roughly". On my end, I take accountability for maybe overreacting to X types of statements, and taking a deep breath and being as forgiving as I can. Most importantly our relationship and trust deepened, and we'll work more effectively together... 1-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
- tssva 5y ago
  Was this a work colleague? If so, isn't your relationship transactional and just part of a larger transactional relationship. That between each of you and your employer.
  - GavinMcG 5y ago
    Human relationships just can't be boiled down to a single term in that way. My relationship with the cashier at the grocery store is obviously transactional, yet we can interact in a variety of ways, and how we do so will affect how we feel, how satisfied we are with {the job|the store}, etc. There's always room for two people in an interaction to be more or less trusting, compatible, enjoyable, etc.
  - softwaredoug 5y ago
    Honestly when you boil it down, almost all relationships we have are transactional to some degree (money, emotionally, physically...). Unconditional love is very hard.
roody15 5y ago
Plankton agrees!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYuboi4GWO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYuboi4GWO4
- sergiomattei 5y ago
  Thank you for this, I laughed so hard.
wly_cdgr 5y ago
I dunno that I would rush to call it a virtue. It's def a valuable skill to have so you can defend yourself and others against bullies. But it also empowers YOU to be a bully or blowhard, so it's a double edged sword. Yes, assertiveness is a virtue in the hands of a mature, responsible, and benevolent person - but it's a disaster in the hands of an immature, uncivilized, or unscrupulous one. Martial arts come to mind
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  You are confusing assertiveness with aggression. Being assertive is a reaction to a stimulus (asserting a boundary), not the stimulus itself (pushing the boundary). The latter case, which is what you describe, is aggressive. There are two other interaction types: passive, and passive-aggressive. Only one of the four is healthy (generally).
  - wly_cdgr 5y ago
    Hmmmm, if you say so
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - lolsal 5y ago
      Read the article, there are paragraphs that explain why it's called a virtue.
      - Dumblydorr 5y ago
        Oxford defines virtue as "behavior showing high moral standards." I think assertiveness only conditionally falls into this category. First, as noted above, assertion to one can be aggression to another, thus questionable high moral standards. However, if both parties agree it's not aggressive, then is it indeed morally good to be assertive? To me, morally good is a higher bar than simply being non-aggressive. I think if virtue is defined on moral grounds, assertiveness is not consistently enough placed into that category.
nkingsy 5y ago
“Tact is a virtue that we find somewhere on the spectrum of dishonesty and brutal honesty.” I like the thought, but I don’t think it’s that simple. More like tact is mindful honesty. The tactful statement may in fact be more honest than the brutally honest statement, because it has examined the raw feeling and mined some kind of actionable/constructive information from it. That may be an obvious distinction for most, but as someone who struggles with tact, it’s been valuable for me to recognize that the most honest statement is one that’s been really thought through for context and impact. Tact, for me, is the act of adding why and how to an honest feeling before expressing it.
- yCombLinks 5y ago
  100% agree, tact does not require dishonesty. At the same time, honesty does not require saying everything you think to everyone within earshot. Brutal honesty: Your eyebrows look awful shaved off. Tact : Those eyebrows are very unique. Dishonesty : Your eyebrows look great shaved off.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Kluny 5y ago
    Slight disagreement - tact is not mentioning the eyebrows at all. That way you're not being even slightly false. "Those eyebrows look very unique" reads as passive aggression.
    - yCombLinks 5y ago
      Ha, that's true, I was thinking in the context of if they asked what is the most tactful response
    - nkingsy 5y ago
      “Those eyebrows are tickling my brain’s facial recognition systems” would be my mindful take on the thought, though yeah, unless you’re asked...

267 points by arkj 5y ago

I would like to become more assertive but I find that just complying makes the problem go away faster and is easier. I say yes way too often but it s easier often than trying to stand my ground. Assertiveness can work better if you have a position of authority

browningstreet 5y ago
The path to positions of authority is often paved by diligent applications of assertiveness.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- galfarragem 5y ago
  Spot on comment. It distills many books on leadership in one sentence. Thank you.
jameal 5y ago
It might be helpful to think of assertiveness as a communication style rather than a problem-solving method. I like this definition: >Assertiveness is a communication style where you can express your thoughts and feelings in an open manner that doesn't violate the rights of others. You can't control how the other person responds or how the situation will play out, but you have the right to be assertive. People who aren't good with assertiveness tend to have lower self-esteem[^1], so if there is a problem assertiveness solves, it is more related to our relationship to ourselves than with any external problem. [^1]: https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/~/media/CCI/Consumer-Modules/Assert-Yourself/Assert-Yourself---01---What-is-Assertiveness.pdf https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/~/media/CCI/Consumer-Module...

samsolomon 5y ago

I would love to see some suggestions on books or videos for assertiveness training. I saw the book suggestion "When I Say No I Feel Guilty" below and would love to hear any others the community has.

SavantIdiot 5y ago
Here's a non-Amazon link to a very popular text: https://www.powells.com/book/nonviolent-communication-9781892005021 https://www.powells.com/book/nonviolent-communication-978189... Also, this book is questionable because of certain phrases and perspectives, but I enjoyed it because it is an attempt to boost confidence (another non-Amazon link): https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/no-more-mr-nice-guy-robert-a-glover/1121663068 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/no-more-mr-nice-guy-robert-... I think the author of this book wrote it specifically for angry right-wing types who think therapy is a weakness, because inside the book is hidden messages of self-acceptance and assertiveness wrapped up in tough-guy sounding language.
jameal 5y ago
A few years ago I stumbled on and worked through [this excellent content on assertiveness](https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/Resources/Looking-After-Yourself/Assertiveness https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/Resources/Looking-After-You...) offered free of charge by a government health agency in Western Australia. It's includes methods for practical application and prompts for reflection. There are 10 PDF modules: 1. What is Assertiveness? 2. How to Recognise Assertive Behaviour 3. How to Think More Assertively 4. How to Behave More Assertively 5. Reducing Physical Tension 6. How to Say “No” Assertively 7. How to Deal Assertively with Criticism 8. How to Deal with Disappointment Assertively 9. How to Give and Receive Compliments Assertively 10. Putting it All Together It was incredibly beneficial for me and I'd highly recommend giving it a shot.

Taylor_OD 5y ago

Yup. The majority of leaders I know are just average people who are more comfortable being assertive. Often aggressively to shut down nay sayers. Listen in meetings and hear how the people talking are normally not the most correct or the right ones but the most assertive.

staunch 5y ago
Sure, most leaders are bad leaders. They're assertive enough to get promoted but too stupid/ignorant/mean/lazy to actually lead well. Good leaders, by definition, are the kind of people that will elevate the voices of the non-assertive-but-right people.
- Taylor_OD 5y ago
  Yup. This is often why smaller companies are dominated by poor leaders as well. There may not be many that many other voices and the non assertive people realize they are not being valued and leave or they don't join to begin with. The later I get in my career the more I realize I care a lot about who my manager will be.

antonzabirko 5y ago

It's not a virtue

asah 5y ago

Successful assertiveness is a learned skill. successful assertiveness = speaking up (at the right time, being articulate, tone, etc) successful assertiveness = being heard (not just speaking) successful assertiveness = being prioritized (not just bl adding to the noise) successful assertiveness = not being penalized / oostracized (so next time you're heard+prioritized) successful != ambition, promotion, raises etc successful != hurting others

factorialboy 5y ago

Assertiveness fundamentally is just clarity of thought. Everybody has experienced that at one point or another. Given enough experience or training, you can fake it. But nothing beats the real thing. Achieve clarity of thought in whatever you do, and assertiveness and other positive traits will follow. Practicing assertiveness without achieving clarity of thought is just disaster delayed slightly thanks to technique.

zen_alchemist 5y ago

I agree.

mypalmike 5y ago

Some good advice here. But the author sure works hard to needlessly connect it to her background in philosophy, and to Aristotle in particular.

hcrisp 5y ago

The story in the article about not knowing how to conclude a conversation reminds me of a tip my brother-in-law gave me. He is a teacher, though a bit introverted, and he said he had problems wrapping up conversations during parent-teacher meetings. Some people just couldn't take a hint. Then he found that by saying, "Ok!" , while simultaneously slapping his palms on his lap (as if about to get up) would jolt everyone into wrap-up mode. I've tried this, and it mostly works. People respond to nonverbal communication (which is apparently more effective than verbal) quite well.

jimkleiber 5y ago
Yes! Reminds me of how my great uncle used to talk and talk and talk after family reunions until one time, I sat there and I think did exactly that, I slapped my hands on my lap, said, "Ok! I'm tired, I'm gonna head to sleep." And he seemed to snap out of his story and we all got up to go to bed. I had been feeling frustrated because he just kept going and my parents had been falling asleep but no one said anything. I agree nonverbals can often help by themselves or even as a starter to more verbal communication in these situations. Thanks for posting this :-) *edit: and my great uncle wasn't trying to harm us, he just liked to talk and probably just got caught up in the moment, not realizing how much he was talking :-)

danuker 5y ago

You'd be surprised how many people open up for your influence, when you "Seek first to understand, then to be understood". Thinking through their problems as well as yours helps come up with a better solution for both of you. All of Covey's advice resonated with me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_7_Habits_of_Highly_Effective_People#5_-_Seek_first_to_understand,_then_to_be_understood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_7_Habits_of_Highly_Effecti...

wombatmobile 5y ago

A great place to practice assertiveness is at home. If an unsolicited person knocks on your door, to sell you a product or a religion, here’s your chance. It’s your sandbox. Assert your right to privacy. Same if you get junk mail in your mailbox that prominently displays a sign “NO JUNK MAIL”. Call them. Ask to speak to the person who put illegal advertising in your mailbox. When they blame it on the deliverer, say “Do you realise you are legally responsible for any illegal action you pay someone else to perform?” Awkward questions are a great way to be assertive. You never have to be rude - just persist with questions that have revealing answers.

_manifold 5y ago
> Same if you get junk mail in your mailbox that prominently displays a sign “NO JUNK MAIL”. Call them. Ask to speak to the person who put illegal advertising in your mailbox. When they blame it on the deliverer, say “Do you realise you are legally responsible for any illegal action you pay someone else to perform?” Asking barbed, rhetorical questions to a stranger over the phone isn't "being assertive", especially when the person you're speaking to most likely has little to no control over the thing you are complaining about. To quote The Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole!"
- z3ncyberpunk 5y ago
  So is the person/company who illegally puts junk mail into a person's mailbox which has been clearly marked with no soliciting.
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  Why would anyone do that to someone who has little or no control over the thing they are complaining about? That would be a waste of everybody's time. First, ask for the name of the person responsible for the thing you want to talk about. Then ask to speak to that person by name.

AlexTWithBeard 5y ago

From personal experience: I thought my lack of assertiveness came from the lack of self-confidence. But once my self confidence got fixed (which is a whole separate story), it turned out assertiveness is rarely needed. The fine art of not giving a shit trumps all other virtues.

errantmind 5y ago
Agreed. Not feeling obligated to care is a valuable way to moderate overreaching requests. This is different than apathy, as it is not a nihilistic impulse. Instead it is a refusal agree to the implicit premise of level of 'importance'. Some people will be offended at this as not taking their request as seriously as they are but it can be expressed in such a way as to say "No, I'd like to be helpful but I have other priorities which require my attention". Or "No, I'd like to be helpful but this is outside the scope of my responsibilities".
rufus_foreman 5y ago
>> The fine art of not giving a shit trumps all other virtues. That's pretty much where I'm at. Assertiveness might be needed once in a while but if it's some sort of daily thing for you there's probably something not right in your life. It's like in Caddyshack when Carl thinks the groundskeeper is asking him to kill all the golfers on the course so he has to start to push back a little bit but when he figures out that its just gophers instead of golfers he's OK with it, "We can do that. We don't even need a reason". That's my attitude towards product managers these days. Sure, we don't even need a reason. They come to me with some poorly thought out unspecced idea that doesn't make much business sense or solve any problem that anyone has ever had, so OK, you know what team? We're gonna ship some fucking code.

jancsika 5y ago

> Perhaps she’d say: ‘Let me get back to you tomorrow about that,’ or: ‘Ask me again in a week.’ I think that example isn't strong enough to register as assertiveness. Assertiveness looks something like this: Someone asked me once if I'd be interested in being the musical director at a church. My response was something like: "I have zero interest in doing that. You know, before Phyllis died she'd seen me politely brushing off an offer to 'fill in' for the organist for an unspecified number of Sundays, for an unspecified amount of money. Phyllis pulled me aside after that and said, 'Don't you ever take a position with a church. The politics are vicious. They will eat you alive.' It was hilarious at the time but she was absolutely serious and I've taken it to heart." That typically works because most people in life have been tasked by either circumstances or other people to suggest a course of action or sell you on something. Your assertion actually gives them some relief because they can stop selling. In this case, we immediately switched to gossiping about vicious church politics for the next few minutes. The difficult thing is to do something like that for the first time. It may feel a bit like jumping out of the plane when skydiving because you have no frame of reference for what will happen next. The key is to reflect ahead of time on a few key preferences you have-- when the time comes, just barrel through and force yourself to make a decision based on that preference. Once done, notice in the aftermath and days after that nothing bad actually happened. It's revelatory-- future moments of low willpower feel like momentary slip ups (or perhaps just reasonable compromises) rather than a complete lack of agency. Edit: clarification

pseudalopex 5y ago
Your response was sharp for no reason if they weren't responsible for the situation. And too indirect if they were. "Thanks. But I'm not interested. Someone warned me the politics are vicious. Please don't ask again."
- strogonoff 5y ago
  Based on how it reads, your counterexample might sound significantly harsher, especially with the closing sentence. The original example establishes shared context, evokes empathy and ultimately brings the participants closer; yours in fact increases distance (pro tip: counter-intuitively, “thanks” and “please” very much work to that effect). From the strength of the original example, of course, comes its weakness: the context, reflection, time, initial degree of familiarity/rapport that it requires mean it can’t possibly help if dozens of [semi-]strangers approach you about the same thing every week. It also assumes that you want to firmly deny the offer, but remain willing to associate in some way with the person making it.

toomanyducks 5y ago

I mean I've read some of the Aristotle mentioned, and I think it's a very and unservingly individualistic approach. The bits that I read took into account your effects on others, but not others' effects on you, aside from the mention of teaching. If we accept that individual virtues are the determining factors of morality, we can't really ask any questions about the effect of others on my own morality, which, in my opinion and experience, is pretty important too. So yeah, be assertive and all, but Aristotle feels like the wrong place to root an analysis of inter-personal interaction.

whataremyvalues 5y ago

IMO Assertiveness is not a virtue but a behavior. It's a behavior that is not beneficial for every person. Neurodiversity requires flexibility of social systems in order to thrive and facilitate innovation. When a social system contains a large bias for assertive behavior then the participants of that system may overvalue the behavior and react to individuals that lack assertiveness as lesser (recognition of environmentally favored behaviors.) When character values are aligned in behavior and attitudes then the assertive behavior can manifest with different motives. In the article the author tells a story of their character decisions when choosing to accomplish their goals through stimulating activity (writing their document with a deadline) or focus their attention on the needs of a member of their group (benevolence and conformity.) The internal dilemma the author went through was the misalignment of their behavior and motives (cognitive dissonance.) "But I couldn’t imagine myself saying those things. I wasn’t that sort of person, and everyone knew it." The author's solution is to focus on protecting themselves (Safety, a conservation life focus.) "You can’t stop people making demands on your time and energy, but you can develop the skills to protect yourself" I urge the author to escape the group mentality that feels safe and explore uncomfortable social environments with the objective of increasing awareness of what matters most to them, not just in theory but in practicality.

supergirl 5y ago

news: everything can be developed with practice. being successful is 90% work and 10% opportunity.

wildmanxx 5y ago

> All-or-nothing thinking – which psychologists call ‘splitting’ – is a symptom of certain personality disorders. And yet it permeates American culture right through its core. With me or against me. Good or bad. Right or wrong. Amazing or horrible. Left or right. Freedom or communism. No compromise. As a corollary, I wonder if it follows that the American culture counts as a personality disorder. (Let the downvotes come!)

markus_zhang 5y ago

When you reach a certain age e.g. 40 you start to realize that you only need to appeal for yourself and no one else matters including you family members. And then suddenly everything goes much better from there.

underwater 5y ago
I assume you mean parents and siblings, as opposed to spouse and children?
- markus_zhang 5y ago
  Everyone. You have to be happy if you want your kid and wife to be happy. Otherwise one just becomes some grumpy husband that everyone tries to avoid. Individual->Family->Company/Organization/State, I believe that's the way it works. You have to take care of the things on left side to make the things on the right side to feel "happy".

mcguire 5y ago

"You can’t stop people making demands on your time and energy, but you can develop the skills to protect yourself..." Wouldn't it be nice if the article had at least identified those skills?

wombatmobile 5y ago
The article did make a start, when it suggested ‘Let me get back to you tomorrow about that,’ or: ‘Ask me again in a week.’ Are you wondering what comes next? Perhaps you're dreading being hectored or criticised in response? Don't worry. There are ways to overcome that. Here's one key paradigm that will make you bulletproof against anyone's unreasonable overture, comment or passive aggression: "Don't let it in." How? Watch this. If what Marisa Peer says resonates with you at all, watch it over and over again. After a few times, you'll learn the words by heart. A few more times and the emotional intelligence of it will be imprinted on your psyche so effectively, your answer will be automatic. Practice and you will be free. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeDt9dgFXFk&t=18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeDt9dgFXFk&t=18s

Thorentis 5y ago

From the article: > Women have more trouble with assertiveness than men do: a study by the Gender Action Portal at Harvard University found that, in salary negotiations, women concede earlier than men, anticipate greater backlash, and are discouraged by others’ perceptions of assertiveness as a non-feminine trait. Suspected this was the case for a while. Any time somebody mentions the "gender pay gap" I'll remind them of this.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

In my experience, assertiveness in of itself isn't a virtue, but knowing specifically who you can be assertive with. For instance, some random middle manager that is making things up about a problem they want you to deal with but sound like they're doing their job. In reality looks like a complete moron on your teams end and don't even understand what they're talking about. Also, the obligatory cc everyone involved cya tactic. These people you don't want to be assertive to. You want to milk them, play dumb, and make them feel like they're always right? You know why? These are the ego driven "mommy and daddy never told me I was wrong" types that will rat you out with every fiber of their being because they think they're entitled it. It's best you make them think you are so incompetent that they don't want to work with you in general. The kicker is, you need to have many of your team members and managers on your side vouch for you. That way when they tattle on you, you've got a solid defense that will fly back in their face to stfu and deal with it. It's pretty disingenuous and sociopathic, but in order to not get walked all over, sometimes you gotta humble yourself to save yourself some stress. Not like a company is gonna fire you cause some Karen doesn't understand the complexity of some programming thing but demands you solve the technical problem asap.

junon 5y ago

I am an assertive person. Believe me when I say it is not a virtue. It doesn't earn you much in practice.

naveen99 5y ago

thinkers like to assert vs feelers prefer to go with the flow. Introverts vs extroverts. women can be more assertive in some areas (aka swipe left). It’s hard to be assertive when you don’t know what you want , or you don’t know which course of action maximizes what you want… she didn’t know what she wanted more (be helpful to her colleague, or do her work). Or she didn’t know what would be better for her career… altruism frequently involves this problem. practice asserting to pay the restaurant bill… (what’s more valuable ? The good will gained or the money lost ?)

dijit 5y ago

This is definitely true. I was given assertiveness training when I was a young boy- I had a troubled time and was put through the training with other trouble makers. It really changed me, I went from being an anxious and shy person to being a generally motivated and quite confident person. Which, is strange given that assertiveness training is mostly identifying assertive behaviour as it differs from aggressive or non-direct behaviour. It doesn’t (or didn’t) force you to be assertive, but identifying it leads you to understanding that you can _be_ assertive.

addflip 5y ago

This is an essential skill for everyone to learn. The article lightly touches on how to learn to be more assertive. If you want a more thorough guide I highly recommend the book, When I Say No I Feel Guilty.

softwaredoug 5y ago

With trusted people, I find its best to default to a non-violent communication style[1]. Express your feelings with "I" statements, etc. "I'm feeling X". Believe the other side has positive intent (ie 'hanlons razor'). Express the 2-way nature, and understand feelings can arise for many reason that may not be anyones fault. Recently I had a conversation with to a colleague where I expressed their earlier perceived 'pressure' made me feel my relationship with them was "transactional". And I felt like my value was about the work I did, not me as a person. I reiterated throughout I didn't think it was their intention. I expressed that this has as much to do with my personality & baggage with how I perceive comments that might not bother others. I didn't do it perfectly (this is a hard skill to cultivate). But... we left with a better way to communicate. "OK Doug reacts to X statements a bit roughly". On my end, I take accountability for maybe overreacting to X types of statements, and taking a deep breath and being as forgiving as I can. Most importantly our relationship and trust deepened, and we'll work more effectively together... 1-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

tssva 5y ago
Was this a work colleague? If so, isn't your relationship transactional and just part of a larger transactional relationship. That between each of you and your employer.
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  Human relationships just can't be boiled down to a single term in that way. My relationship with the cashier at the grocery store is obviously transactional, yet we can interact in a variety of ways, and how we do so will affect how we feel, how satisfied we are with {the job|the store}, etc. There's always room for two people in an interaction to be more or less trusting, compatible, enjoyable, etc.
- softwaredoug 5y ago
  Honestly when you boil it down, almost all relationships we have are transactional to some degree (money, emotionally, physically...). Unconditional love is very hard.

roody15 5y ago

Plankton agrees!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYuboi4GWO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYuboi4GWO4

sergiomattei 5y ago
Thank you for this, I laughed so hard.

wly_cdgr 5y ago

I dunno that I would rush to call it a virtue. It's def a valuable skill to have so you can defend yourself and others against bullies. But it also empowers YOU to be a bully or blowhard, so it's a double edged sword. Yes, assertiveness is a virtue in the hands of a mature, responsible, and benevolent person - but it's a disaster in the hands of an immature, uncivilized, or unscrupulous one. Martial arts come to mind

SavantIdiot 5y ago
You are confusing assertiveness with aggression. Being assertive is a reaction to a stimulus (asserting a boundary), not the stimulus itself (pushing the boundary). The latter case, which is what you describe, is aggressive. There are two other interaction types: passive, and passive-aggressive. Only one of the four is healthy (generally).
- wly_cdgr 5y ago
  Hmmmm, if you say so
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  - lolsal 5y ago
    Read the article, there are paragraphs that explain why it's called a virtue.
    - Dumblydorr 5y ago
      Oxford defines virtue as "behavior showing high moral standards." I think assertiveness only conditionally falls into this category. First, as noted above, assertion to one can be aggression to another, thus questionable high moral standards. However, if both parties agree it's not aggressive, then is it indeed morally good to be assertive? To me, morally good is a higher bar than simply being non-aggressive. I think if virtue is defined on moral grounds, assertiveness is not consistently enough placed into that category.

nkingsy 5y ago

“Tact is a virtue that we find somewhere on the spectrum of dishonesty and brutal honesty.” I like the thought, but I don’t think it’s that simple. More like tact is mindful honesty. The tactful statement may in fact be more honest than the brutally honest statement, because it has examined the raw feeling and mined some kind of actionable/constructive information from it. That may be an obvious distinction for most, but as someone who struggles with tact, it’s been valuable for me to recognize that the most honest statement is one that’s been really thought through for context and impact. Tact, for me, is the act of adding why and how to an honest feeling before expressing it.

yCombLinks 5y ago
100% agree, tact does not require dishonesty. At the same time, honesty does not require saying everything you think to everyone within earshot. Brutal honesty: Your eyebrows look awful shaved off. Tact : Those eyebrows are very unique. Dishonesty : Your eyebrows look great shaved off.
- deleted 5y ago
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- Kluny 5y ago
  Slight disagreement - tact is not mentioning the eyebrows at all. That way you're not being even slightly false. "Those eyebrows look very unique" reads as passive aggression.
  - yCombLinks 5y ago
    Ha, that's true, I was thinking in the context of if they asked what is the most tactful response
  - nkingsy 5y ago
    “Those eyebrows are tickling my brain’s facial recognition systems” would be my mindful take on the thought, though yeah, unless you’re asked...