4 ms·

We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. By meaningful, I mean to someone other yo

by mgh2 5y ago

We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.

vlunkr 5y ago
Isn't the post you're replying to evidence against this? They have financial independence, and now they are finding meaningful work. I agree that we need a sense of purpose for happiness/mental health, but why does that have to be "working for the man?".
- mgh2 5y ago
  Why is "working for the man" so bad when it gives purpose in your life? The article showed how unsatisfied his wife was when she felt as "not going anywhere", I think she was trying to say that she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. As it is torture to keep someone in a room with no stimulation, it is the same with repetition and no change or progress. “Industry, thrift and self-control are not sought because they create wealth, but because they create character.” - Calvin Coolidge We need this aspect for personal development. Metaphor: https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4dda1e04a82d https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4d...
  - vlunkr 5y ago
    > why is "working for the man" so bad I don't think it is necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other paths to fulfillment. They may not be for you, but they exist. > it is the same with repetition and no change or progress. If someone chooses to retire and immediately enter a vegetative state, that's really their fault.
  - bumby 5y ago
    >she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. I think the flip side of this is that many people are so focused on progress and looking forward to the next goal line that they become unable to appreciate the moment and, ironically, happiness is always one more goal away. Recently, I’ve been reading books on Buddhism (specifically how it differs from many Western value systems) and it sheds some light on this. The same goes for the inability to be happy sans constant stimulation.
    - jbmny 5y ago
      Any particular books you'd recommend?
      - bumby 5y ago
        You can absolutely find people more qualified for book recommendations on the subject than me, but here are a few: "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist" by Stephon Batchelor. Useful to me for understanding the cultural context of Buddhism. Insight Meditation by Joseph Goldstein. I just find Goldstein's style the easiest to comprehend in a field that often comes across as frustratingly esoteric Wherever You Go There You Are by Jon Kabat-Zinn. I thought this book is interesting because it draws parallels to Western authors, particularly Thoreau. Sam Harris's "Waking Up" app may also be worth a listen. Besides the actual mindfulness practice, there are a lot of discussions on theory and he has conversations with a variety of people that come to the topic from different perspectives.
      - tomp 5y ago
        The way of Zen by Alan Watts.
  - mnowicki 5y ago
    sure there are some people that get meaning from work, and who would have trouble finding meaning outside of work. But I can't agree that 'working for the man' and doing whatever you can do to get by is the best recipe for finding the most meaningful work for most people. In some cases "working for the man" isn't bad and it does give people purpose, but in (imo)the majority of cases, it is bad because it prevents you from using your time to do something you actually find meaningful. I think the few people who are able to find meaning in their jobs are either extremely lucky to have found what they want to do, had the opportunity to pursue it and succeed, and make a decent enough living doing it without the money aspect killing their joy - or they're the type of people who have just 'over-assimilated' to modern life and found a way to extract meaning from their work, but these people would probably be able to find at least as much meaning and happiness in something else if they grew up in a world where working wasn't expected to be almost your entire life.
westiseast 5y ago
Having meaning, yes. Meaningful WORK? Not necessarily.
mym1990 5y ago
It all depends on what the definition of work here is, right(there is the capitalistic sense, or the purely physical/mental expenditure of energy)? I don't think we really know what we were built for, if anything... The beauty is that one human can spend 70 years meditating and find purpose in that and another human can build a rocket ship and go to space and find purpose in that...and then you have everything in between and outside!
samuelbalogh 5y ago
I would disagree with "We were built for work". Evolutionary, we were built to survive until reproduction age and a bit longer after that, to care for offsprings. I think people who misunderstand the FIRE movement think that early retirees don't want to do meaningful work, like volunteering, painting, making music, etc. I think that is the point of FIRE - to be able to do the most meaningful things you can think of.
paulcole 5y ago
I definitely wasn't built to have a purpose. I took a 3-year early retirement and didn't do anything for anyone but myself and loved every minute of it. I watched TV, went to the movies, read books, went to the gym, rode my bicycle, and that was it. Had no need for anything else. If I could do that without having a job, I'd happily do it for the rest of my life with no problems.
- cowvin 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy doing that for quite some time. I guess it might get old after a while, though, which is why I would probably do a semi-retirement bit for a while.
ar_lan 5y ago
Most FIRE people don't just stop working. They just stop working boring, 8-5's. For example, I really want to open my own cidery. But doing so would be such a massive paycut that it wouldn't be worth pursuing right now, even though it's ultimately what I want to do. So, I'm software engineering until I make enough to FIRE, after which I can pursue that dream.
wing-_-nuts 5y ago
>this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. Only if you take the narrowest view of what FIRE is. There's a reason the largest subreddit for it is called r/financialindependence. It's not about retiring as early as possible. It's not having to work to survive. It's choosing to work on things which are intrinsically meaningful, as much or as little as you like. I don't think anyone in the FIRE movement would tell you it's wise to retire to a beach and sip mojitos all day.
benhurmarcel 5y ago
We weren't built, we just happen to have evolved. There is no higher purpose. See, your life philosophy isn't universal.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mgh2 5y ago
It seems a lot of people downvoting and replying to this thread did not read the entire article - as if I offended a cult. The author reaches a similar conclusion. The "freedom" and "F the man" movements (crypto, 4HWW, FIRE, MLM, Kiyosaki, etc.) all seem to share a similar narrative: Spend your most productive years in retirement while feeding off from other's labor - a somehow irresponsible worldview.
motioncuty 5y ago
I was built to work a lottle bit everyday as part of a loving tribe, with a wide variety of skills and a direct experience of the fruits of my labor. Get me that and work becomes a blessing.

by mgh2 5y ago

vlunkr 5y ago

Isn't the post you're replying to evidence against this? They have financial independence, and now they are finding meaningful work. I agree that we need a sense of purpose for happiness/mental health, but why does that have to be "working for the man?".

mgh2 5y ago
Why is "working for the man" so bad when it gives purpose in your life? The article showed how unsatisfied his wife was when she felt as "not going anywhere", I think she was trying to say that she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. As it is torture to keep someone in a room with no stimulation, it is the same with repetition and no change or progress. “Industry, thrift and self-control are not sought because they create wealth, but because they create character.” - Calvin Coolidge We need this aspect for personal development. Metaphor: https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4dda1e04a82d https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4d...
- vlunkr 5y ago
  > why is "working for the man" so bad I don't think it is necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other paths to fulfillment. They may not be for you, but they exist. > it is the same with repetition and no change or progress. If someone chooses to retire and immediately enter a vegetative state, that's really their fault.
- bumby 5y ago
  >she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. I think the flip side of this is that many people are so focused on progress and looking forward to the next goal line that they become unable to appreciate the moment and, ironically, happiness is always one more goal away. Recently, I’ve been reading books on Buddhism (specifically how it differs from many Western value systems) and it sheds some light on this. The same goes for the inability to be happy sans constant stimulation.
  - jbmny 5y ago
    Any particular books you'd recommend?
    - bumby 5y ago
      You can absolutely find people more qualified for book recommendations on the subject than me, but here are a few: "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist" by Stephon Batchelor. Useful to me for understanding the cultural context of Buddhism. Insight Meditation by Joseph Goldstein. I just find Goldstein's style the easiest to comprehend in a field that often comes across as frustratingly esoteric Wherever You Go There You Are by Jon Kabat-Zinn. I thought this book is interesting because it draws parallels to Western authors, particularly Thoreau. Sam Harris's "Waking Up" app may also be worth a listen. Besides the actual mindfulness practice, there are a lot of discussions on theory and he has conversations with a variety of people that come to the topic from different perspectives.
    - tomp 5y ago
      The way of Zen by Alan Watts.
- mnowicki 5y ago
  sure there are some people that get meaning from work, and who would have trouble finding meaning outside of work. But I can't agree that 'working for the man' and doing whatever you can do to get by is the best recipe for finding the most meaningful work for most people. In some cases "working for the man" isn't bad and it does give people purpose, but in (imo)the majority of cases, it is bad because it prevents you from using your time to do something you actually find meaningful. I think the few people who are able to find meaning in their jobs are either extremely lucky to have found what they want to do, had the opportunity to pursue it and succeed, and make a decent enough living doing it without the money aspect killing their joy - or they're the type of people who have just 'over-assimilated' to modern life and found a way to extract meaning from their work, but these people would probably be able to find at least as much meaning and happiness in something else if they grew up in a world where working wasn't expected to be almost your entire life.

westiseast 5y ago

Having meaning, yes. Meaningful WORK? Not necessarily.

mym1990 5y ago

It all depends on what the definition of work here is, right(there is the capitalistic sense, or the purely physical/mental expenditure of energy)? I don't think we really know what we were built for, if anything... The beauty is that one human can spend 70 years meditating and find purpose in that and another human can build a rocket ship and go to space and find purpose in that...and then you have everything in between and outside!

samuelbalogh 5y ago

I would disagree with "We were built for work". Evolutionary, we were built to survive until reproduction age and a bit longer after that, to care for offsprings. I think people who misunderstand the FIRE movement think that early retirees don't want to do meaningful work, like volunteering, painting, making music, etc. I think that is the point of FIRE - to be able to do the most meaningful things you can think of.

paulcole 5y ago

I definitely wasn't built to have a purpose. I took a 3-year early retirement and didn't do anything for anyone but myself and loved every minute of it. I watched TV, went to the movies, read books, went to the gym, rode my bicycle, and that was it. Had no need for anything else. If I could do that without having a job, I'd happily do it for the rest of my life with no problems.

cowvin 5y ago
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy doing that for quite some time. I guess it might get old after a while, though, which is why I would probably do a semi-retirement bit for a while.

ar_lan 5y ago

Most FIRE people don't just stop working. They just stop working boring, 8-5's. For example, I really want to open my own cidery. But doing so would be such a massive paycut that it wouldn't be worth pursuing right now, even though it's ultimately what I want to do. So, I'm software engineering until I make enough to FIRE, after which I can pursue that dream.

wing-_-nuts 5y ago

>this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. Only if you take the narrowest view of what FIRE is. There's a reason the largest subreddit for it is called r/financialindependence. It's not about retiring as early as possible. It's not having to work to survive. It's choosing to work on things which are intrinsically meaningful, as much or as little as you like. I don't think anyone in the FIRE movement would tell you it's wise to retire to a beach and sip mojitos all day.

benhurmarcel 5y ago

We weren't built, we just happen to have evolved. There is no higher purpose. See, your life philosophy isn't universal.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

mgh2 5y ago

It seems a lot of people downvoting and replying to this thread did not read the entire article - as if I offended a cult. The author reaches a similar conclusion. The "freedom" and "F the man" movements (crypto, 4HWW, FIRE, MLM, Kiyosaki, etc.) all seem to share a similar narrative: Spend your most productive years in retirement while feeding off from other's labor - a somehow irresponsible worldview.

motioncuty 5y ago

I was built to work a lottle bit everyday as part of a loving tribe, with a wide variety of skills and a direct experience of the fruits of my labor. Get me that and work becomes a blessing.