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Met Police seize record £180m of cryptocurrency in London
- DaiPlusPlus 5y agoI’m curious how they “seized” the units of cryptocurrency here. The cypherpunk trope is they either hacked their targets’ wallet with hither-untold mathematics or they used rubber-hose cryptography… The idea of a Bitcoin nerd being forced by a court to transfer BTC via Bitcoin.exe amuses me - but that doesn’t sit right with me for some reason… Unfortunately the article is light in technical details - does anyone know more?
- hrjfkfnf 5y agoMaybe it was just sitting on an exchange.
- chokeartist 5y agoYup. Most criminals aren't masterminds. Fuck - most of them don't even take basic steps to cover their tracks. That includes people with big bank rolls occasionally.
- Breza 5y agoThis is worth emphasizing. There's a reverse survivor bias at play. No matter what people do, some fraction will be really bad at it. Think about any workplace. In the criminal world, these are the people who get caught the fastest and result in the flashiest press releases.
- dewey 5y agoWouldn't they just need the private key file that can be taken from the target's device?
- fidelramos 5y agoThe private keys are usually encrypted, so the attacker would have to brute force the password, install a keylogger or use a wrench, to give some ideas.
- toyg 5y agoyour weekly friendly reminder that refusing to hand off passwords to authorities is a crime in the UK, punishable with up to 2 years in prison (5 if the case is marked as sensitive for "national security"). That's a pretty nice wrench.
- gccs 5y agoI forgot my password.
- NationalPark 5y agoJudges love arguments like this.
- Corristowolf 5y agoJudges do or defense attorneys do?
- toyg 5y agoThis has been tested in court as a defense. Try to guess what the result was.
- hrjfkfnf 5y agoNot sure if that applies to a password used to secure crypto, since you can argue that the gov can see what's behind the password (ie: the crypto amount), and the purpose of the law is to reveal data hidden by the password, not to take control over it.
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- Retric 5y agoKeyboard logging, located the key paper on paper or a pc, seized from exchange, or cracked whatever wallet software they where using seems more likely than cracking the encryption or beating it out of the suspects. Really the more time you spend around people actually using crypto coins the less secure they seem. It’s clearly possible to be secure, but many people are doing the equivalent of stuffing their mattress with cash.
- alisonkisk 5y agoDoing the equivalent of putting your money in Fort Knox kind of kills the appeal of "money you carry in your head".
- sho 5y agoEasy. If it's a third party service like an exchange or other custody provider, get a court order, done. If it's on a personal wallet (very rare) then compel them to hand it over right now or go to prison until you do. No rubber hose required.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoThat's just rubber hose with a warning and paperwork.
- bradhe 5y agoIt's just rubber hose with extra steps!
- playpause 5y agoWhat does ‘rubber hose’ mean here?
- 1986 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis > In cryptography, rubber-hose cryptanalysis is a euphemism for the extraction of cryptographic secrets (e.g. the password to an encrypted file) from a person by coercion or torture[1]—such as beating that person with a rubber hose, hence the name—in contrast to a mathematical or technical cryptanalytic attack.
- 0xcde4c3db 5y agoThe "beating with a rubber hose" thing, in turn, comes from allegations that this method is favored by the likes of secret police, intelligence agencies, and organized crime because it leaves minimal marks on the victim compared to other forms of physical abuse.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- m3kw9 5y agoFound the recovery phrase during a house search? Or phone search?
- anm89 5y agoAll you need to do is find an exposed machine with keys. That could be via physical seizures as well. Or if it was on a KYCd exchange you just get a warrant and seize it. I'd be my bottom dollar this wasn't some sort of cryptographic attack.
- mrtksn 5y agoBulgaria still holds the record of seized crypto, at 200K BTC which is at about 6.5 Billion $ ATM. AFAIK, when the police comes to you the computer people come alongside with the guys with the guns and immediately start messing with your equipment before packing them for evidence. How would they take your coins? If it's on an Exchange they will simply tell the exchange to hand over the dirty money. If the exchange is out of their jurisdiction, it can be harder but the cyber crime tends to be international in nature so they will probably activate some cooperation agreement and compel the exchange to hand over. If the exchange is extralegal, their best bet would be to compel you to hand it over. The first thing the computer people do would be to take a look at the running devices and extract as much information is possible. They will take alive snapshot and manually look around your folders and browser history for points of interest. Since the raid is most likely to be as a result of an investigation they would likely have an idea what to look for. If they know that you run your business with BTC they would be looking for wallets and Exchange login info. Once the accessible data is collected and disk images are taken and you are in custody they will start pushing you to give them access to the stuff that is locked down. Because you were investigated before the raid, they will have an estimate of your possessions and will know what to press for. If they nail you for some criminal activity, your best bet could be to cooperate and hand over your crypto if you don't want to be in prison for longer.
- Tenoke 5y ago>Bulgaria still holds the record of seized crypto, at 200K BTC which is at about 6.5 Billion $ ATM. It was sold for more like 3B euro[0] but yes still pretty good. 0. https://bitcoinist.com/bulgaria-not-bitcoin-1-6b-finance-minister/ https://bitcoinist.com/bulgaria-not-bitcoin-1-6b-finance-min...
- varispeed 5y agoIn the UK you have to give up any passwords or you get 5 years or something for failing that.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y agoI'm curious about "£180m of". Tried cashing it in yet?
- m3kw9 5y agoThey prevent launderers from cashing it out.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y agoTether will prevent it being cashed out for you anyway.
- rjsw 5y agoThey don't "cash in" a drugs bust but can still assign a value to it.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y agoAssign or invent. law enforcement typically talks that up, to a high degree. e.g. a truck full of cocaine? Estimate the value as a per-gram street price, not what a wholesale truckload would change hands for to the next middleman who will break bulk.
- carnitine 5y agoThat seems like a reasonable thing to do. I don’t really see the problem, don’t they generally refer to that as ‘street value’ anyway? Besides, what could they have done similarly in this case? Why would they not just be referring to the current spot value of the currencies?
- dkersten 5y agoEven then, its usually overpriced. I remember some years ago there was a cannabis bust where I am and they announced that they seized X amount and it had a street value of Y and I was just thinking those guys are getting seriously ripped off if that's what they're paying because anyone I knew selling it was charging a lot lot less.
- DeadBeatDad 5y ago> Transactions made using cryptocurrencies can provide more anonymity to senders and recipients of money Well, yes, providing you use something like Monero. We all should know by now that Bitcoin has a transparent ledger and your kids in 20 years time will probably be able to see what you spent your Bitcoin on.
- neb_b 5y agoBitcoin privacy tools are improving. Its possible to "mix" your coins using CoinJoin which masks your spending history.
- jacoblambda 5y agoThe statement isn't incorrect. The majority of cryptocurrencies (including Bitcoin) are anonymous since they don't assign an external identity and unless you manually attach one, the only way an identity is attached is if it can be inferred by the activity on the account. Monero and zk proof based networks are private (distinct from anonymous) because the interactions between the accounts and funds are largely obscured. While these zk proof based networks are also anonymous, most networks are not also private. It's a small distinction but it's important none-the-less. Privacy improves anonymity but it's perfectly possible to remain anonymous without privacy.
- zucker42 5y ago> the only way an identity is attached is if it can be inferred by the activity on the account. Or by observing the IP from which you access Bitcoin.
- rfd4sgmk8u 5y agoThis isn't really a thing, not without huge visibility of the bitcoin network to correlate 'first time transaction seen'. Transactions are relayed by peers -- just because you saw some gossip from IP 'A' does not imply the transaction came from IP 'A', it could have been relayed through 'B' and 'C'. Furthermore, with dandelion routing, you cannot find the true origin of the tx by sight, even if you find the true first IP relaying the transaction.
- edwinbalani 5y agoWhenever law enforcement snags a "major haul", be it illicit cash or substances or arms or anything else, I guess I focus on its physical size as the thing that makes it impressive -- and worthy of tallying up records and high scores. The bigger the stash, the harder it is to hide, after all. So when the haul is something like this -- without direct physical scale, which could fit in anyone's pocket regardless of its volume -- it doesn't have the same wow factor for me. But I feel like it should!
- atatatat 5y agoI'm having the opposite effect right now.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago> Whenever law enforcement snags a "major haul", be it illicit cash or substances or arms or anything else, I guess I focus on its physical size as the thing that makes it impressive law enforcement typically talks that up, to a high degree. e.g. a truck full of cocaine? Estimate the value as a per-gram street price, not what a wholesale truckload would change hands for to the next middleman who will break bulk. A truckload of illicit cash? Large parts of "Breaking Bad" were all about how useless that can be.
- daleharvey 5y agoNot exactly hacker news material, but couldnt help remind me of The Guard - "I dont know what street your buying your cocaine off but its not the same street I am buying mine" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp37jdduMbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp37jdduMbI
- 52-6F-62 5y agoThe Guard is a piece of fine art. That couldn't be more appropriate. Just as a caution to others, maybe don't play that with the volume up loud in the office. The context is critical, and there are a few loud... remarks.
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- prox 5y ago>The Met's economic crime command made the seizure after following up intelligence received about the transfer of criminal assets. Are there any numbers on how much of cryptocurrency is probably illegitimate?
- rawtxapp 5y agoAccording to chainanalysis, about 0.34% of crypto transfers in 2020 were for crime if that's what you mean by illegitimate [1]. 1: https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/2021-crypto-crime-report-intro-ransomware-scams-darknet-markets https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/2021-crypto-crime-repor...
- prox 5y agoYeah, just curious how much is for crime. That’s not that much (thought it might have been higher)
- berkes 5y agoUsing a transparent, public, mathematically provable correct, ledger to store your drug-laundering and income: who ever thought this would be a good idea? Bitcoin only ever was pseudonymous, which is only anonymous if you manage to disconnect each link between with the real world and your bitcoin pseudonyms/addresses. For ever. That is a lot of hard work, when for example a £20 bill works so much easier.
- elif 5y ago"The detectives on this case have worked tirelessly and meticulously to trace millions of pounds worth of cryptocurrency suspected of being linked to criminality" sounds like they don't have anything more than a vague suspicion, at least that they are willing to speak publicly about.
- drcongo 5y agoA drop in the ocean compared to the amount of fiat currency laundered through high street banks in London every year.