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> What if there's unpredictable long term consequences? That same question can be asked about covid so I don't understand how this single point brings anything

> What if there's unpredictable long term consequences? That same question can be asked about covid so I don't understand how this single point brings anything to the discussion. We don't know the future. We don't know the future vaccine effects just like we don't know the future for covid effects. We do definitely know that the effects of covid (even if you discount them by the fact that not everyone gets covid) are much worse than the vaccines. Everything points to the vaccines being much better than the disease.

raxxorrax 5y ago
That was my point from the beginning, but you still cannot exclude risk completely. This is why manufacturers are explicitly exempt from responsibility of damages. Why would that be needed then? Why do people getting the vaccine need to wait a while before being released? Because of the unknowns that I meant. And it doesn't even have to be intrinsic to the vaccine, it could be a manufacturing error like there was with Polio. As I said, I am vaccinated, but this reaction and militancy really puts me off and frankly, I think it is a bit stupid. Not your comment though.
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  Of course you can't exclude the risk, but there is _no_ usable information in that fear. Just because something can happen down the line, doesn't mean it's actionable. What if these vaccines start giving us super human strength in a few years? Can we discount that possibility? Why or why not? Should I act on that possibility today? All we can consider is _actionable_ information. All information so far points to the side-effects of the vaccines causing problems at negligible levels compared to the the side-effects of getting covid. That is information we can use and it really only supports one conclusion.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    I believe this to be actionable enough that the decision to take it or not should remain an individual decision and I believe that is the extend what people demand. Nobody is talking about throwing it off the market because it isn't deemed safe.
    - CogitoCogito 5y ago
      I never said this shouldn't be anyone's individual choice. All I said was that I'm disgusted that so many people would make the choice.
exporectomy 5y ago
If everyone else is vaccinated except you, you're protected from the effects of both covid and the vaccine.
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  How so? You can still get covid. Even the people vaccinated can get covid. Besides there is nowhere where everyone is vaccinated but you anyway. Some places have high rates some places have low rates. So your hypothetical situation just doesn't apply anywhere. Anyway if you'd like an anecdote, I have a friend in Spain who just got the delta variant along with his 4 friends a few days ago. He was about to get his second shot yesterday (obviously it's postponed now) and his 4 friends were all completely vaccinated when they got sick.

raxxorrax 5y ago

That was my point from the beginning, but you still cannot exclude risk completely. This is why manufacturers are explicitly exempt from responsibility of damages. Why would that be needed then? Why do people getting the vaccine need to wait a while before being released? Because of the unknowns that I meant. And it doesn't even have to be intrinsic to the vaccine, it could be a manufacturing error like there was with Polio. As I said, I am vaccinated, but this reaction and militancy really puts me off and frankly, I think it is a bit stupid. Not your comment though.

CogitoCogito 5y ago
Of course you can't exclude the risk, but there is _no_ usable information in that fear. Just because something can happen down the line, doesn't mean it's actionable. What if these vaccines start giving us super human strength in a few years? Can we discount that possibility? Why or why not? Should I act on that possibility today? All we can consider is _actionable_ information. All information so far points to the side-effects of the vaccines causing problems at negligible levels compared to the the side-effects of getting covid. That is information we can use and it really only supports one conclusion.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  I believe this to be actionable enough that the decision to take it or not should remain an individual decision and I believe that is the extend what people demand. Nobody is talking about throwing it off the market because it isn't deemed safe.
  - CogitoCogito 5y ago
    I never said this shouldn't be anyone's individual choice. All I said was that I'm disgusted that so many people would make the choice.

exporectomy 5y ago

If everyone else is vaccinated except you, you're protected from the effects of both covid and the vaccine.

CogitoCogito 5y ago
How so? You can still get covid. Even the people vaccinated can get covid. Besides there is nowhere where everyone is vaccinated but you anyway. Some places have high rates some places have low rates. So your hypothetical situation just doesn't apply anywhere. Anyway if you'd like an anecdote, I have a friend in Spain who just got the delta variant along with his 4 friends a few days ago. He was about to get his second shot yesterday (obviously it's postponed now) and his 4 friends were all completely vaccinated when they got sick.