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On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally l

On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. And these are only explicit forms of discrimination. This does not account for latent discrimination, which is quite difficult to measure but probably exists more copiously than explicit discrimination.

samfoo 15y ago
You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? To clarify: I think it's important that women are represented in all professions (obviously software/tech is of specific concern) if only for the fact that diversity breeds innovation and discussion.
- Cushman 15y ago
  So men's weakness is a predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior, and women's weakness is... men's predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior. I mean, it'd be funny if it weren't true.
  - webXL 15y ago
    samfoo never made the claim that men and women had the same weaknesses. He was simply stating that men are also disadvantaged because of their own nature. If you're a woman and are able to avoid violent or bigoted men, or are able to defend yourself against them, then you are not disadvantaged as someone who can't defend against those men. And to ricefield's claim that girls are no longer "disadvantaged.", there is some truth to that just looking at what's happened over the last century.
- jamesaguilar 15y ago
  > You're cherry picking statistics . . . All the statistics you picked are typically associated with choices the individual in question made. Some of them are also associated with mental disorders. While it sucks that men are more susceptible to mental disease than women, that's not a form of discrimination. On the other hand, women that become a member of the statistical sets I picked do so in typical daily interaction with men. They don't have the option to not be around men, nor would it be reasonable to expect them to make that choice if it were available to them. There's no equivalence between your statistics and mine. > So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? No, we cannot.
  - jnhnum1 15y ago
    Please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism#Masculist_concerns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism#Masculist_concerns And after you've read that, please don't make the claim that there is no "real" discrimination against men.
    - jamesaguilar 15y ago
      I never made that claim. Maybe you are responding to the wrong commenter?
      - jnhnum1 15y ago
        look, you said this: "Most areas where men are at a broad disadvantage are caused by male tendencies acting against themselves, not by other groups discriminating against men (e.g. the violent crime issue, which is not caused by discrimination but by male violent tendencies). Fundamentally, I don't care as much when people are hoist on their own petard as when they hoist others on the same." Tell me then, how is it an innocent man's fault when society assumes he is a pedophile when he is simply playing with his kids at the park? Or why is criminal sentencing so much more severe for men than for women who have committed an equivalent crime?
        jamesaguilar 15y ago
Symmetry 15y ago
I very much agree with the bulk of your post, most people are surprised to learn that woman on man domestic abuse is not at all uncommon. To quote wikipedia: Straus and Gelles found in couples reporting spousal violence, 27% of the time the man struck the first blow; the woman in 24%. The rest of the time, the violence was mutual, with both partners brawling. The results were the same even when the most severe episodes of violence were analyzed. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, and the data was the same. Gay and lesbian couples also have similar rates of domestic violence. However, due to differences in strength women are much less likely to be seriously injured or killed by domestic abuse by men than vice versa. On the other hand, battered men are less likely to receive help from society for various obvious reasons. We really have to work against domestic violence in general, rather than just "violence against women". Outside of the home, though, almost all violence committed against strangers is done by men, whereas almost all the violence that women commit is some form of domestic abuse. However, again, I agree that women often suffer discrimination in the workplace and suffer disproportionately from sexual harassment.
sliverstorm 15y ago
Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? No, but maybe not the way you are thinking... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by_males http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by... It's a pervasive stereotype that it doesn't happen to men, but it's never addressed.

samfoo 15y ago

You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? To clarify: I think it's important that women are represented in all professions (obviously software/tech is of specific concern) if only for the fact that diversity breeds innovation and discussion.

Cushman 15y ago
So men's weakness is a predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior, and women's weakness is... men's predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior. I mean, it'd be funny if it weren't true.
- webXL 15y ago
  samfoo never made the claim that men and women had the same weaknesses. He was simply stating that men are also disadvantaged because of their own nature. If you're a woman and are able to avoid violent or bigoted men, or are able to defend yourself against them, then you are not disadvantaged as someone who can't defend against those men. And to ricefield's claim that girls are no longer "disadvantaged.", there is some truth to that just looking at what's happened over the last century.
jamesaguilar 15y ago
> You're cherry picking statistics . . . All the statistics you picked are typically associated with choices the individual in question made. Some of them are also associated with mental disorders. While it sucks that men are more susceptible to mental disease than women, that's not a form of discrimination. On the other hand, women that become a member of the statistical sets I picked do so in typical daily interaction with men. They don't have the option to not be around men, nor would it be reasonable to expect them to make that choice if it were available to them. There's no equivalence between your statistics and mine. > So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? No, we cannot.
- jnhnum1 15y ago
  Please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism#Masculist_concerns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism#Masculist_concerns And after you've read that, please don't make the claim that there is no "real" discrimination against men.
  - jamesaguilar 15y ago
    I never made that claim. Maybe you are responding to the wrong commenter?
    - jnhnum1 15y ago
      look, you said this: "Most areas where men are at a broad disadvantage are caused by male tendencies acting against themselves, not by other groups discriminating against men (e.g. the violent crime issue, which is not caused by discrimination but by male violent tendencies). Fundamentally, I don't care as much when people are hoist on their own petard as when they hoist others on the same." Tell me then, how is it an innocent man's fault when society assumes he is a pedophile when he is simply playing with his kids at the park? Or why is criminal sentencing so much more severe for men than for women who have committed an equivalent crime?
      - jamesaguilar 15y ago

Symmetry 15y ago

I very much agree with the bulk of your post, most people are surprised to learn that woman on man domestic abuse is not at all uncommon. To quote wikipedia: Straus and Gelles found in couples reporting spousal violence, 27% of the time the man struck the first blow; the woman in 24%. The rest of the time, the violence was mutual, with both partners brawling. The results were the same even when the most severe episodes of violence were analyzed. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, and the data was the same. Gay and lesbian couples also have similar rates of domestic violence. However, due to differences in strength women are much less likely to be seriously injured or killed by domestic abuse by men than vice versa. On the other hand, battered men are less likely to receive help from society for various obvious reasons. We really have to work against domestic violence in general, rather than just "violence against women". Outside of the home, though, almost all violence committed against strangers is done by men, whereas almost all the violence that women commit is some form of domestic abuse. However, again, I agree that women often suffer discrimination in the workplace and suffer disproportionately from sexual harassment.

sliverstorm 15y ago

Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? No, but maybe not the way you are thinking... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by_males http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by... It's a pervasive stereotype that it doesn't happen to men, but it's never addressed.