11 ms·

True, but I guess I'm starting to feel that girls are no longer "disadvantaged." Less interested, maybe, disadvantaged, not so much. EDIT: for context, I'm a c

True, but I guess I'm starting to feel that girls are no longer "disadvantaged." Less interested, maybe, disadvantaged, not so much. EDIT: for context, I'm a child of the 90's, perhaps much different (or not) from some of you. I grew up in liberal(?) Silicon Valley. As a male, my entire life I've felt that girls were encouraged to succeed academically, received extra help, and greatly praised for their accomplishments, all because of a perceived societal disadvantage; whereas the boys were either expected to succeed, or largely disregarded because, hey what's the big deal? they're somehow at a huge advantage anyways. in my high school graduating class, both the valedictorian and salutatorian were girls. and while I had guy friends who were equally brilliant, they never had the motivation or desire to succeed academically the way those girls (one of whom i was best friends with) were. to me it was striking to see brilliant young men and women, and the startling contrast in motivation and approaches to life (the guys were incredibly laid back, the girls were very much go-getters). these are my personal observations, and as stated above, a personal feeling, fwiw (probably not much)

jamesaguilar 15y ago
On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. And these are only explicit forms of discrimination. This does not account for latent discrimination, which is quite difficult to measure but probably exists more copiously than explicit discrimination.
- samfoo 15y ago
  You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? To clarify: I think it's important that women are represented in all professions (obviously software/tech is of specific concern) if only for the fact that diversity breeds innovation and discussion.
  - Cushman 15y ago
    So men's weakness is a predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior, and women's weakness is... men's predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior. I mean, it'd be funny if it weren't true.
    - webXL 15y ago
      samfoo never made the claim that men and women had the same weaknesses. He was simply stating that men are also disadvantaged because of their own nature. If you're a woman and are able to avoid violent or bigoted men, or are able to defend yourself against them, then you are not disadvantaged as someone who can't defend against those men. And to ricefield's claim that girls are no longer "disadvantaged.", there is some truth to that just looking at what's happened over the last century.
  - jamesaguilar 15y ago
    > You're cherry picking statistics . . . All the statistics you picked are typically associated with choices the individual in question made. Some of them are also associated with mental disorders. While it sucks that men are more susceptible to mental disease than women, that's not a form of discrimination. On the other hand, women that become a member of the statistical sets I picked do so in typical daily interaction with men. They don't have the option to not be around men, nor would it be reasonable to expect them to make that choice if it were available to them. There's no equivalence between your statistics and mine. > So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? No, we cannot.
    - jnhnum1 15y ago
      Please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism#Masculist_concerns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism#Masculist_concerns And after you've read that, please don't make the claim that there is no "real" discrimination against men.
      - jamesaguilar 15y ago
- Symmetry 15y ago
  I very much agree with the bulk of your post, most people are surprised to learn that woman on man domestic abuse is not at all uncommon. To quote wikipedia: Straus and Gelles found in couples reporting spousal violence, 27% of the time the man struck the first blow; the woman in 24%. The rest of the time, the violence was mutual, with both partners brawling. The results were the same even when the most severe episodes of violence were analyzed. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, and the data was the same. Gay and lesbian couples also have similar rates of domestic violence. However, due to differences in strength women are much less likely to be seriously injured or killed by domestic abuse by men than vice versa. On the other hand, battered men are less likely to receive help from society for various obvious reasons. We really have to work against domestic violence in general, rather than just "violence against women". Outside of the home, though, almost all violence committed against strangers is done by men, whereas almost all the violence that women commit is some form of domestic abuse. However, again, I agree that women often suffer discrimination in the workplace and suffer disproportionately from sexual harassment.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? No, but maybe not the way you are thinking... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by_males http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by... It's a pervasive stereotype that it doesn't happen to men, but it's never addressed.
Cushman 15y ago
Shot in the dark— you're male?
- Helianthus 15y ago
  thus demonstrating the conflict rather concisely. his/her* solidarity is taboo and you can attack him by saying he's just playing for the team _as if that's a bad thing._ would you do that to a girl? a more balanced equality would not qualify arguments based on group membership. *just making a point with the 'her', I'm sure he's a guy, too.
  - Cushman 15y ago
    Not at all. I'm just pointing out that the corollary to "Solidarity has historically been acceptable in disadvantaged groups and frowned upon when exhibited by privileged groups" is that privileged groups have historically tended to perceive equality well before disadvantaged groups (and its true emergence). As a member of the privileged class, your perception that you are not privileged isn't taboo, it's just wrong.
    - benmccann 15y ago
      Girls do better in school than boys. I'm curious why you'd suggest that boys are privileged in this environment.
      - Cushman 15y ago
        First of all, there isn't enough evidence to say whether that's because of privilege or because women are naturally more intelligent than men. Second, we can sure talk about specific environments. Talk to any white kid who grew up in a black neighborhood, they sure don't feel like they're better off for being white. And, yeah, that's bad. We should be doing something to help that kid. But his bad experience doesn't change the reality that when he leaves his neighborhood, when he goes to a job interview or to court or really just about, he is better off for being white. So, sure. Girls are doing better than boys in school. The last entering freshmen class at my school was almost 2:1 female. Am I worried? Not really. Men still run the world. We should be talking about how to help boys do better in school. We should also make sure we don't forget that women are an oppressed class, and that any solutions we try aren't contributing to the overall oppression of women. Which probably means we should get women to do it.
SatvikBeri 15y ago
Having studied graduate level Math at UC Berkeley, I can tell you that there are consistent, major disadvantages for women in the sciences even in California. Examples: 1. When working together on homework, guys would almost never accept corrections from women, even when they were right. They would accept the same corrections from guys. 2. If a guy got help from another guy, he would mention it when talking to a third person e.g. "Steven said that the way to think about this is...". If a guy got help from a girl, he would almost never mention it.
- ricefield 15y ago
  I find that interesting, considering I currently study computer science at Berkeley (undergrad). Not sure if i ever got that sense. I've had some really good female project partners and/or study mates. But I can see how some guys might feel emasculated from being helped by a girl.
  - SatvikBeri 15y ago
    Perhaps it was just the Math department. I shouldn't have said "the sciences", since the Math department was the only place I had any experience with-but sexism was definitely prevalent there. It's worth noting that it was more common at higher levels...didn't seem to exist much at intro courses, but it was significant at gradudate level courses.

jamesaguilar 15y ago

On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. And these are only explicit forms of discrimination. This does not account for latent discrimination, which is quite difficult to measure but probably exists more copiously than explicit discrimination.

samfoo 15y ago
You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? To clarify: I think it's important that women are represented in all professions (obviously software/tech is of specific concern) if only for the fact that diversity breeds innovation and discussion.
- Cushman 15y ago
  So men's weakness is a predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior, and women's weakness is... men's predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior. I mean, it'd be funny if it weren't true.
  - webXL 15y ago
    samfoo never made the claim that men and women had the same weaknesses. He was simply stating that men are also disadvantaged because of their own nature. If you're a woman and are able to avoid violent or bigoted men, or are able to defend yourself against them, then you are not disadvantaged as someone who can't defend against those men. And to ricefield's claim that girls are no longer "disadvantaged.", there is some truth to that just looking at what's happened over the last century.
- jamesaguilar 15y ago
  > You're cherry picking statistics . . . All the statistics you picked are typically associated with choices the individual in question made. Some of them are also associated with mental disorders. While it sucks that men are more susceptible to mental disease than women, that's not a form of discrimination. On the other hand, women that become a member of the statistical sets I picked do so in typical daily interaction with men. They don't have the option to not be around men, nor would it be reasonable to expect them to make that choice if it were available to them. There's no equivalence between your statistics and mine. > So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? No, we cannot.
  - jnhnum1 15y ago
    Please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism#Masculist_concerns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism#Masculist_concerns And after you've read that, please don't make the claim that there is no "real" discrimination against men.
    - jamesaguilar 15y ago
Symmetry 15y ago
I very much agree with the bulk of your post, most people are surprised to learn that woman on man domestic abuse is not at all uncommon. To quote wikipedia: Straus and Gelles found in couples reporting spousal violence, 27% of the time the man struck the first blow; the woman in 24%. The rest of the time, the violence was mutual, with both partners brawling. The results were the same even when the most severe episodes of violence were analyzed. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, and the data was the same. Gay and lesbian couples also have similar rates of domestic violence. However, due to differences in strength women are much less likely to be seriously injured or killed by domestic abuse by men than vice versa. On the other hand, battered men are less likely to receive help from society for various obvious reasons. We really have to work against domestic violence in general, rather than just "violence against women". Outside of the home, though, almost all violence committed against strangers is done by men, whereas almost all the violence that women commit is some form of domestic abuse. However, again, I agree that women often suffer discrimination in the workplace and suffer disproportionately from sexual harassment.
sliverstorm 15y ago
Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? No, but maybe not the way you are thinking... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by_males http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by... It's a pervasive stereotype that it doesn't happen to men, but it's never addressed.

Cushman 15y ago

Shot in the dark— you're male?

Helianthus 15y ago
thus demonstrating the conflict rather concisely. his/her* solidarity is taboo and you can attack him by saying he's just playing for the team _as if that's a bad thing._ would you do that to a girl? a more balanced equality would not qualify arguments based on group membership. *just making a point with the 'her', I'm sure he's a guy, too.
- Cushman 15y ago
  Not at all. I'm just pointing out that the corollary to "Solidarity has historically been acceptable in disadvantaged groups and frowned upon when exhibited by privileged groups" is that privileged groups have historically tended to perceive equality well before disadvantaged groups (and its true emergence). As a member of the privileged class, your perception that you are not privileged isn't taboo, it's just wrong.
  - benmccann 15y ago
    Girls do better in school than boys. I'm curious why you'd suggest that boys are privileged in this environment.
    - Cushman 15y ago
      First of all, there isn't enough evidence to say whether that's because of privilege or because women are naturally more intelligent than men. Second, we can sure talk about specific environments. Talk to any white kid who grew up in a black neighborhood, they sure don't feel like they're better off for being white. And, yeah, that's bad. We should be doing something to help that kid. But his bad experience doesn't change the reality that when he leaves his neighborhood, when he goes to a job interview or to court or really just about, he is better off for being white. So, sure. Girls are doing better than boys in school. The last entering freshmen class at my school was almost 2:1 female. Am I worried? Not really. Men still run the world. We should be talking about how to help boys do better in school. We should also make sure we don't forget that women are an oppressed class, and that any solutions we try aren't contributing to the overall oppression of women. Which probably means we should get women to do it.

SatvikBeri 15y ago

Having studied graduate level Math at UC Berkeley, I can tell you that there are consistent, major disadvantages for women in the sciences even in California. Examples: 1. When working together on homework, guys would almost never accept corrections from women, even when they were right. They would accept the same corrections from guys. 2. If a guy got help from another guy, he would mention it when talking to a third person e.g. "Steven said that the way to think about this is...". If a guy got help from a girl, he would almost never mention it.

ricefield 15y ago
I find that interesting, considering I currently study computer science at Berkeley (undergrad). Not sure if i ever got that sense. I've had some really good female project partners and/or study mates. But I can see how some guys might feel emasculated from being helped by a girl.
- SatvikBeri 15y ago
  Perhaps it was just the Math department. I shouldn't have said "the sciences", since the Math department was the only place I had any experience with-but sexism was definitely prevalent there. It's worth noting that it was more common at higher levels...didn't seem to exist much at intro courses, but it was significant at gradudate level courses.