4 ms·

Southgate showed us a new England. But the old one hasn’t gone away

2 points by akbarnama 5y ago

raxxorrax 5y ago
Talking about racism has become difficult and it is also due to media using it as a cudgel. Not even as a well meaning litmus test and instead to silence dissent. Now people are far less reluctant to state offensive positions and I would even encourage that to not accept lies, even when that might come at a cost. I don't think Italy took the knee btw, this is a play by mostly Anglo countries and some followers that similarly want to assert their interpretations of racism on others. Italy was more or less forced to do so in some games, although I don't think they kneeled in the finals. Good on them. The result that seems to let people drop any pretense is that media and politicians escalated their misbehavior, so to keep up with that, many feel the need to rattle the cage a bit. > in part because our political leaders have allowed that poison to fester Media tried to sanction people for using incorrect terminology. They are as part of the problem as these racists. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but they certainly aren't part of a solution, no matter how many people you force to kneel, to waive certain flags or not... At this point I cannot in good conscience correct people that believe media wants to bring bakc racism. It is a bit ridiculous, but by result there certainly is truth to it. Additionally, Hooliganism isn't necessarily racism, even if there are parallels. But there were also English fans that were attacked by other English fans. Black English fans attacked white Italien fans. Again, the diagnosis falls short if you look closer. Sorry, but this article is mostly wrong and at this point I would even say part of the problem, because it isn't a modern progressive view, it is the age old idiocy of colored people against white people that breeds conflict. Wrong and stupid.
- zimpenfish 5y ago
  > although I don't think they kneeled in the finals. They did - "Players from both teams took a knee before the starting whistle to bring attention to racial injustice" (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/italy-wins-european-soccer-championship-3-2-penalty-shootout-n1273643 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/italy-wins-european-socce...) > Additionally, Hooliganism isn't necessarily racism When it comes to racism, the article is talking about the racial abuse players are getting on social media, not the hooliganism.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Not sure if the article got that right. Maybe I missed it but I think they kneeled at another game, semi- or quarter-finals.
    - zimpenfish 5y ago
      Just checking now on the BBC coverage and every player on the pitch, both English and Italian, took the knee at kickoff.
      - raxxorrax 5y ago
        Hm, so they did made them kneel in the end, must have overlooked that. In my opinion you don't have to wonder about bold expression of racism. Not necessarily because that is what people feel, but to spite forced behavior like this.

2 points by akbarnama 5y ago

Talking about racism has become difficult and it is also due to media using it as a cudgel. Not even as a well meaning litmus test and instead to silence dissent. Now people are far less reluctant to state offensive positions and I would even encourage that to not accept lies, even when that might come at a cost. I don't think Italy took the knee btw, this is a play by mostly Anglo countries and some followers that similarly want to assert their interpretations of racism on others. Italy was more or less forced to do so in some games, although I don't think they kneeled in the finals. Good on them. The result that seems to let people drop any pretense is that media and politicians escalated their misbehavior, so to keep up with that, many feel the need to rattle the cage a bit. > in part because our political leaders have allowed that poison to fester Media tried to sanction people for using incorrect terminology. They are as part of the problem as these racists. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but they certainly aren't part of a solution, no matter how many people you force to kneel, to waive certain flags or not... At this point I cannot in good conscience correct people that believe media wants to bring bakc racism. It is a bit ridiculous, but by result there certainly is truth to it. Additionally, Hooliganism isn't necessarily racism, even if there are parallels. But there were also English fans that were attacked by other English fans. Black English fans attacked white Italien fans. Again, the diagnosis falls short if you look closer. Sorry, but this article is mostly wrong and at this point I would even say part of the problem, because it isn't a modern progressive view, it is the age old idiocy of colored people against white people that breeds conflict. Wrong and stupid.

zimpenfish 5y ago
> although I don't think they kneeled in the finals. They did - "Players from both teams took a knee before the starting whistle to bring attention to racial injustice" (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/italy-wins-european-soccer-championship-3-2-penalty-shootout-n1273643 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/italy-wins-european-socce...) > Additionally, Hooliganism isn't necessarily racism When it comes to racism, the article is talking about the racial abuse players are getting on social media, not the hooliganism.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Not sure if the article got that right. Maybe I missed it but I think they kneeled at another game, semi- or quarter-finals.
  - zimpenfish 5y ago
    Just checking now on the BBC coverage and every player on the pitch, both English and Italian, took the knee at kickoff.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      Hm, so they did made them kneel in the end, must have overlooked that. In my opinion you don't have to wonder about bold expression of racism. Not necessarily because that is what people feel, but to spite forced behavior like this.