8 ms·

I didn't read the article in is entirety, but one line popped out at me, where one of the finalists says something like "Yeah! Girl power!" Am I the only one w

I didn't read the article in is entirety, but one line popped out at me, where one of the finalists says something like "Yeah! Girl power!" Am I the only one who feels like, although men may 'dominate' the hard sciences, one of the reasons (among many others which I won't discuss) why girls may succeed at stages like this is because of the encouragement from a "girl power!" (perhaps, underdog?) mentality? If boys won and went with "guy power!" they would simply be accused of being sexist or even misogynist rather than fair-minded, or intrinsically motivated.

Shenglong 15y ago
If boys won and went with "guy power!" they would simply be accused of being sexist or even misogynist rather than fair-minded, or intrinsically motivated. Yes. First thing that popped into my head when I read that too.
- Apocryphon 15y ago
  That sort of cheer doesn't make any sense, though. Guys aren't usually the losers of science fairs.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  If boys won a limbo contest they may say that. And likewise, women probably aren't likely to say such a thing at a limbo contest.
jamesaguilar 15y ago
Solidarity has historically been acceptable in disadvantaged groups and frowned upon when exhibited by privileged groups. This reasons for this should be fairly obvious.
- ricefield 15y ago
  True, but I guess I'm starting to feel that girls are no longer "disadvantaged." Less interested, maybe, disadvantaged, not so much. EDIT: for context, I'm a child of the 90's, perhaps much different (or not) from some of you. I grew up in liberal(?) Silicon Valley. As a male, my entire life I've felt that girls were encouraged to succeed academically, received extra help, and greatly praised for their accomplishments, all because of a perceived societal disadvantage; whereas the boys were either expected to succeed, or largely disregarded because, hey what's the big deal? they're somehow at a huge advantage anyways. in my high school graduating class, both the valedictorian and salutatorian were girls. and while I had guy friends who were equally brilliant, they never had the motivation or desire to succeed academically the way those girls (one of whom i was best friends with) were. to me it was striking to see brilliant young men and women, and the startling contrast in motivation and approaches to life (the guys were incredibly laid back, the girls were very much go-getters). these are my personal observations, and as stated above, a personal feeling, fwiw (probably not much)
  - jamesaguilar 15y ago
    On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. And these are only explicit forms of discrimination. This does not account for latent discrimination, which is quite difficult to measure but probably exists more copiously than explicit discrimination.
    - samfoo 15y ago
      You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? To clarify: I think it's important that women are represented in all professions (obviously software/tech is of specific concern) if only for the fact that diversity breeds innovation and discussion.
      - Cushman 15y ago
        So men's weakness is a predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior, and women's weakness is... men's predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior. I mean, it'd be funny if it weren't true.
        webXL 15y ago
        samfoo never made the claim that men and women had the same weaknesses. He was simply stating that men are also disadvantaged because of their own nature. If you're a woman and are able to avoid violent or bigoted men, or are able to defend yourself against them, then you are not disadvantaged as someone who can't defend against those men. And to ricefield's claim that girls are no longer "disadvantaged.", there is some truth to that just looking at what's happened over the last century.
- jberryman 15y ago
  Is there a way we can distill your point down further to an acronym that can be posted as the standard rebuttal to the gp's argument? It seems like we do this discussion everyday.
  - jamesaguilar 15y ago
    I suggest making a meme out of it. We have a lot of conversations in my workplace via captioned images and it ends up being a very productive conversation tool, because it forces the distillation of salient points in pursuit of brevity. It's also very entertaining. :)
funkah 15y ago
You would think we could just celebrate that they're smart, but apparently we need to celebrate that they're smart and that they're girls. I think that sends a bad message, that girls are hothouse flowers or somehow need more encouragement for them to do well.
- raganwald 15y ago
  Wait, what!? Let's say, for example, that we have a country like Fiji where XC skiing is rare. But a university student from Fiji he takes up the sport. He ends up representing his country in the 1988 Olympics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympic... Now, if he were to go on and actually win an Olympic medal, is it wrong of us to say, "Wow, that's amazing considering he's from a country that traditionally doesn't do very well in Winter sports?" Are we treating him like a hot house flower to celebrate the fact that he skiis and he's from Fiji? Do we think Fijians have some sort of character defect if they need to be encouraged to try this sport that for decades has been dominated by people who aren't very much like them at all?
  - Helianthus 15y ago
    you're saying that girls don't 'come from a place' where they can develop math and science skills. it's not wrong to celebrate overcoming hardship. it's wrong to assume that the hardship of being a woman has been overcome as if there's something implicitly more difficult for _every woman_.
    - raganwald 15y ago
      I said nothing of the sort. I said that Rusiate Rogoyawa came from a place where people like him hadn't won Olympic medals. I said nothing about whether Fijians have hardships to overcome or whether they simply don't care about XC skiing. It is enough to note that there have been no medals for Fiji, and a medal would be unusual. My claim is that this is similar to the case of the girls. We have plenty of uncontested evidence that women can be fine scientists. What is missing is a track record of girls winning science fairs, much less sweeping them.
raganwald 15y ago
No, you're not the only one, and your comment strongly reminds me of the question of why society frowns on "White Power" and "White Pride." I can't really think of anything to tell you that hasn't been said to people asking this question for the last fifty years or so, just pointing out that the issues of insiders vs. outsiders seem to be similar.
- thewisedude 15y ago
  2 out of the 3 girls seem to be of south Asian origin(Indian?). Does that not seem like a statistical anomaly considering the percentage of south Asians in the US? Any comments?
  - raganwald 15y ago
    I still can't think of anything to say about the unfairness of not being able to encourage boys with "boy power" that hasn't been said--rightly or wrongly--about "white power." The possibility that 2/3 of the girls in question were from the Indian subcontinent doesn't spur me to greater creativity.
sp332 15y ago
they would simply be accused of being sexist Yes, but unfairly. I think the exclamation was one of surprise, not putting down boys. It would be hard to tell, without being there.
libria 15y ago
The "Girl Power" attitude probably reflects more of a clique-ish divide common at that age rather than a social aside on gender inequality, similar to a "Generic HS represent!" cheer. The more alarming quote was Cerf's "I was secretly very pleased to see that happen." The obvious corollary is that he would have been secretly less pleased if boys had won. Does that indicate he has lesser expectations for women? Would his (probably) sub-conscious bias actually hurt girls perceptions of themselves in the long run? Reminds me of the Reddit thread for a women-only programming event that received some backlash: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h0fe0/pyladies_an_introductory_workshop/ http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h0fe0/pyladies_...
- raganwald 15y ago
  The more alarming quote was Cerf's "I was secretly very pleased to see that happen." The obvious corollary is that he would have been secretly less pleased if boys had won. Another alarming interpretation is that he was secretly pleased that the girls had won, but would have been openly pleased if boys had won :-)
nancye 15y ago
In fifth grade, my science teacher asked me if I'd copied answers off the boy who sat in front of me, even though my grade average was 20 points higher than his. In sixth grade, my math teacher was well known to favor the boys in the class and would only call on me if I was the only one with my hand raised. In eighth grade, another teacher chose two boys to represent the school at a math competition even though I had the highest average in the class. All little things, but I still remember them. In high school, my all-girl team won the state science league twice, and I finished first individually. Did we take pride and inspiration in the fact that we'd beaten all the boys in the state? Absolutely! Were we truly at an advantage when it came to math and science education? I never felt like it, and I knew a lot of bright girls who internalized the "girls aren't supposed to be good at this" message in ways that affected their education and career choices. Sometimes a little girl power is just what helps you to keep going in the face of subtle or overt discouragement from the people around you.
- Helianthus 15y ago
  which is all true and good, but doesn't change the fundamental unfairness that it ranges from discouraged to taboo to say something like "Guy power!" or "Yeah, go men!" how many bright men are internalizing messages detrimental to their education and career choices? maybe a little guy power would help them keep going in the face of subtle etc.
  - jamesaguilar 15y ago
    http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/084/118/original/2u9jxps.jpg?1290452475 http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/084/118/original/2u9jxps....
  - Apocryphon 15y ago
    I don't really think majoritarian pride is as uplifting or fun as pride in achieving well despite being part of a disadvantaged minority. However, we should get rid of majoritarian shame/guilt, of course.
    - 15y ago
5hoom 15y ago
I don't feel that a girl getting into the finals & cheering "girl power" is the most offensive thing in the world. I suppose she should have gracefully & demurely stood & curtseyed (while balancing a stack of books on her head) as the audience clapped politely. I would think the hacker community should be welcoming to a bit more girl power & I for one welcome our new double x chromosome overlords :)

Shenglong 15y ago

If boys won and went with "guy power!" they would simply be accused of being sexist or even misogynist rather than fair-minded, or intrinsically motivated. Yes. First thing that popped into my head when I read that too.

Apocryphon 15y ago
That sort of cheer doesn't make any sense, though. Guys aren't usually the losers of science fairs.
kenjackson 15y ago
If boys won a limbo contest they may say that. And likewise, women probably aren't likely to say such a thing at a limbo contest.

jamesaguilar 15y ago

Solidarity has historically been acceptable in disadvantaged groups and frowned upon when exhibited by privileged groups. This reasons for this should be fairly obvious.

ricefield 15y ago
True, but I guess I'm starting to feel that girls are no longer "disadvantaged." Less interested, maybe, disadvantaged, not so much. EDIT: for context, I'm a child of the 90's, perhaps much different (or not) from some of you. I grew up in liberal(?) Silicon Valley. As a male, my entire life I've felt that girls were encouraged to succeed academically, received extra help, and greatly praised for their accomplishments, all because of a perceived societal disadvantage; whereas the boys were either expected to succeed, or largely disregarded because, hey what's the big deal? they're somehow at a huge advantage anyways. in my high school graduating class, both the valedictorian and salutatorian were girls. and while I had guy friends who were equally brilliant, they never had the motivation or desire to succeed academically the way those girls (one of whom i was best friends with) were. to me it was striking to see brilliant young men and women, and the startling contrast in motivation and approaches to life (the guys were incredibly laid back, the girls were very much go-getters). these are my personal observations, and as stated above, a personal feeling, fwiw (probably not much)
- jamesaguilar 15y ago
  On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. And these are only explicit forms of discrimination. This does not account for latent discrimination, which is quite difficult to measure but probably exists more copiously than explicit discrimination.
  - samfoo 15y ago
    You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? To clarify: I think it's important that women are represented in all professions (obviously software/tech is of specific concern) if only for the fact that diversity breeds innovation and discussion.
    - Cushman 15y ago
      So men's weakness is a predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior, and women's weakness is... men's predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior. I mean, it'd be funny if it weren't true.
      - webXL 15y ago
        samfoo never made the claim that men and women had the same weaknesses. He was simply stating that men are also disadvantaged because of their own nature. If you're a woman and are able to avoid violent or bigoted men, or are able to defend yourself against them, then you are not disadvantaged as someone who can't defend against those men. And to ricefield's claim that girls are no longer "disadvantaged.", there is some truth to that just looking at what's happened over the last century.
jberryman 15y ago
Is there a way we can distill your point down further to an acronym that can be posted as the standard rebuttal to the gp's argument? It seems like we do this discussion everyday.
- jamesaguilar 15y ago
  I suggest making a meme out of it. We have a lot of conversations in my workplace via captioned images and it ends up being a very productive conversation tool, because it forces the distillation of salient points in pursuit of brevity. It's also very entertaining. :)

funkah 15y ago

You would think we could just celebrate that they're smart, but apparently we need to celebrate that they're smart and that they're girls. I think that sends a bad message, that girls are hothouse flowers or somehow need more encouragement for them to do well.

raganwald 15y ago
Wait, what!? Let's say, for example, that we have a country like Fiji where XC skiing is rare. But a university student from Fiji he takes up the sport. He ends up representing his country in the 1988 Olympics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympic... Now, if he were to go on and actually win an Olympic medal, is it wrong of us to say, "Wow, that's amazing considering he's from a country that traditionally doesn't do very well in Winter sports?" Are we treating him like a hot house flower to celebrate the fact that he skiis and he's from Fiji? Do we think Fijians have some sort of character defect if they need to be encouraged to try this sport that for decades has been dominated by people who aren't very much like them at all?
- Helianthus 15y ago
  you're saying that girls don't 'come from a place' where they can develop math and science skills. it's not wrong to celebrate overcoming hardship. it's wrong to assume that the hardship of being a woman has been overcome as if there's something implicitly more difficult for _every woman_.
  - raganwald 15y ago
    I said nothing of the sort. I said that Rusiate Rogoyawa came from a place where people like him hadn't won Olympic medals. I said nothing about whether Fijians have hardships to overcome or whether they simply don't care about XC skiing. It is enough to note that there have been no medals for Fiji, and a medal would be unusual. My claim is that this is similar to the case of the girls. We have plenty of uncontested evidence that women can be fine scientists. What is missing is a track record of girls winning science fairs, much less sweeping them.

raganwald 15y ago

No, you're not the only one, and your comment strongly reminds me of the question of why society frowns on "White Power" and "White Pride." I can't really think of anything to tell you that hasn't been said to people asking this question for the last fifty years or so, just pointing out that the issues of insiders vs. outsiders seem to be similar.

thewisedude 15y ago
2 out of the 3 girls seem to be of south Asian origin(Indian?). Does that not seem like a statistical anomaly considering the percentage of south Asians in the US? Any comments?
- raganwald 15y ago
  I still can't think of anything to say about the unfairness of not being able to encourage boys with "boy power" that hasn't been said--rightly or wrongly--about "white power." The possibility that 2/3 of the girls in question were from the Indian subcontinent doesn't spur me to greater creativity.

sp332 15y ago

they would simply be accused of being sexist Yes, but unfairly. I think the exclamation was one of surprise, not putting down boys. It would be hard to tell, without being there.

libria 15y ago

The "Girl Power" attitude probably reflects more of a clique-ish divide common at that age rather than a social aside on gender inequality, similar to a "Generic HS represent!" cheer. The more alarming quote was Cerf's "I was secretly very pleased to see that happen." The obvious corollary is that he would have been secretly less pleased if boys had won. Does that indicate he has lesser expectations for women? Would his (probably) sub-conscious bias actually hurt girls perceptions of themselves in the long run? Reminds me of the Reddit thread for a women-only programming event that received some backlash: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h0fe0/pyladies_an_introductory_workshop/ http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h0fe0/pyladies_...

raganwald 15y ago
The more alarming quote was Cerf's "I was secretly very pleased to see that happen." The obvious corollary is that he would have been secretly less pleased if boys had won. Another alarming interpretation is that he was secretly pleased that the girls had won, but would have been openly pleased if boys had won :-)

nancye 15y ago

In fifth grade, my science teacher asked me if I'd copied answers off the boy who sat in front of me, even though my grade average was 20 points higher than his. In sixth grade, my math teacher was well known to favor the boys in the class and would only call on me if I was the only one with my hand raised. In eighth grade, another teacher chose two boys to represent the school at a math competition even though I had the highest average in the class. All little things, but I still remember them. In high school, my all-girl team won the state science league twice, and I finished first individually. Did we take pride and inspiration in the fact that we'd beaten all the boys in the state? Absolutely! Were we truly at an advantage when it came to math and science education? I never felt like it, and I knew a lot of bright girls who internalized the "girls aren't supposed to be good at this" message in ways that affected their education and career choices. Sometimes a little girl power is just what helps you to keep going in the face of subtle or overt discouragement from the people around you.

Helianthus 15y ago
which is all true and good, but doesn't change the fundamental unfairness that it ranges from discouraged to taboo to say something like "Guy power!" or "Yeah, go men!" how many bright men are internalizing messages detrimental to their education and career choices? maybe a little guy power would help them keep going in the face of subtle etc.
- jamesaguilar 15y ago
  http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/084/118/original/2u9jxps.jpg?1290452475 http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/084/118/original/2u9jxps....
- Apocryphon 15y ago
  I don't really think majoritarian pride is as uplifting or fun as pride in achieving well despite being part of a disadvantaged minority. However, we should get rid of majoritarian shame/guilt, of course.
  - 15y ago

5hoom 15y ago

I don't feel that a girl getting into the finals & cheering "girl power" is the most offensive thing in the world. I suppose she should have gracefully & demurely stood & curtseyed (while balancing a stack of books on her head) as the audience clapped politely. I would think the hacker community should be welcoming to a bit more girl power & I for one welcome our new double x chromosome overlords :)