5 ms·

I'm 46. I have been working in SV since ~1996 I have had several existential crisis wondering "what the fuck am I doing this for, we produce nothing." ---

I'm 46. I have been working in SV since ~1996 I have had several existential crisis wondering *"what the fuck am I doing this for, we produce nothing."* --- This happened to me at FB, SF, Lucas, Brocade... I was like "yeah, im doing well professionally, making money - but at the end of the day, it was just "we produce nothing of intrinsic value" I find it ironic that NFTs are now the version of creating something of digital content, but it has non-fungible (intrinsic value) and they are attempting to make a money laundering network out of NFTs (if you may not be aware, the art market is the largest money laundering scheme ever devised up until where we are at present. I am currently going through a mid-life, as I can't stand tech at all - but its all I know, so I am attempting to just get into gardening and maybe work at a nursery...

armchairhacker 5y ago
> we produce nothing of intrinsic value Idk about that. You could say the same about a farmer or a banker or a teacher etc. Even the guys who build the Empire State building - there were probably hundreds of them, each only building a small part - and someday that will get lost in time also. “Intrinsic value” is whatever you define it to be. I guess if you’re working for some ad-sales-management company making software for other big companies, then you probably don’t think you’re making much intrinsic value. But my philosophy is, just try to make the world a slightly better place to live in when you leave. And even a small library or project may help others working on bigger projects, which influence bigger projects, which cause real change.
- samstave 5y ago
  >>“Intrinsic value” is whatever you define it to be. The guy who produces one tomato is worth more than the entire team who produces, say a mobile DLC/Gambling/betting game. CMV
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    Gambling game is of negative value so it is easy to beat that :)
- pjerem 5y ago
  > we produce nothing of intrinsic value Idk about that. You could say the same about a farmer or a banker or a teacher etc. Absolutely not. None of these professionals are ever working on superfluous projects of unknown worth to the society. In fact, their worth to the society is immediate and totally tangible: you couldn’t eat without the farmer’s work, you wouldn’t have a house without the banker, and you would be dumb without the teacher. However for most software projects, you would have a hard time to define their positive contribution to the society. Not saying useful and positive software doesn’t exists : there are plenty of those. But they are a visible minority in a sea of unknown, buggy, driven by bankable MVPs rather than useful and well crafted user centered software.
  - cutler 5y ago
    "Wouldn't have a house without the banker". In some societies this is/was called usury - the opposite of intrinsic value. Banks leech value instead of creating any.
forgotmypw17 5y ago
I'm a little younger than you, so I want to ask this: If it were up to you, alone or with a team you're in charge of, do you think you could come up with a piece of software which would be less ephemeral and more lasting, perhaps being able to work unadministered or requiring minimum administration for a while, and be usable AND useful for years without any major changes? What would it look like, and what would its pieces be made of?
- samstave 5y ago
  I LOVE this challenging thought experiment. (I was on "commenting too fast" restrictions (Shakes fist @Dang)... --- With that said - I love this question! --- The premise, as interpreted: **"A self-teaching application which can adjust behavior and performance with minimal input"** --- Proposal A: [NMAP/PRISM/ETC for AI/ML systems] ((I'd be sure Palantir has this covered...)) This one will be long winded and off-the-cuff based on some work we did with tracking software in the past (people places, things, things-that-kill-people-places-and-things, etc) I would like an AI awareness layer whereby an AI/ML system can locate adjacent 'other' systems and either silently learn - or actively map/learn etc... We have had netmon tools for decades. I'd prefer a single firewall device; I plug it in at home - and its my VPN/PROXY that ALL my familial devices run through. ALL. So its just a simple VPN etc - all my mobile devices in the family of devices only route through my home device - which in-turn also keeps a small constellation of other nodes several hops out - such that BGP is sorta accomplished - cant get to primary node, go here instead. I've designed SDNs on mass-fiber btwn HK, JP, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc... Its doable (this is when Palo Alto Networks was just coming online with their product line...) Doing this in a manner which utilized AI/ML/etc to more intelligently setup these systems... Yes I could lead a team that does that.... Lets think this thing out into the zeitgeist and if its lame, then let it die - if it is not lame - then I will work with anyone who may want to explore it?
  - forgotmypw17 5y ago
    What would the hardware for this look like. Is there anything more to it than two Ethernet ports, storage, RAM, and CPU? Anything beyond putting together existing components? Thank you for responding, I am intrigued by your ideas.
saurik 5y ago
Someone who maintains an event space will find that they have to do the same tasks every day and that their hard-fought progress is often destroyed by the very events that they host; meanwhile, even their optimized routines will randomly become obsolete due to changing circumstance of construction, government, and behavior... and yet I don't think it would be fair that they are producing nothing of intrinsic value: the value of Facebook isn't the software you developed while working there, but (as they like to say) "the friends we made along the way".
- bigiain 5y ago
  <snark> the cost of Facebook isn't the software you developed while working there, but (as I like to say) "the lives you destroyed along the way".
Zababa 5y ago
> I was like "yeah, im doing well professionally, making money - but at the end of the day, it was just "we produce nothing of intrinsic value" I think it depends on what you work on. For example, I once created a small program to split some file for my mother. She uses it every day at work and saves ~30 minutes of manual work. It's a source of pride for me. She can use that time to work on more substantial things, maybe come out of work earlier sometimes, and in general avoid some mind-numbing work. Many people use computers these days, and by being programmers we have a lot of power in our hands. You can reason that saving a bit of time will amount to nothing in the end, but it usually generates lots of positive feelings.
arthur_sav 5y ago
I'm not sure if it's the age but all the coders over 50 that i've met are grumpy and pessimists. You can choose the type of company and the value it provides... plenty of companies that produce meaningful software products.

I'm 46. I have been working in SV since ~1996 I have had several existential crisis wondering *"what the fuck am I doing this for, we produce nothing."* ---

armchairhacker 5y ago

> we produce nothing of intrinsic value Idk about that. You could say the same about a farmer or a banker or a teacher etc. Even the guys who build the Empire State building - there were probably hundreds of them, each only building a small part - and someday that will get lost in time also. “Intrinsic value” is whatever you define it to be. I guess if you’re working for some ad-sales-management company making software for other big companies, then you probably don’t think you’re making much intrinsic value. But my philosophy is, just try to make the world a slightly better place to live in when you leave. And even a small library or project may help others working on bigger projects, which influence bigger projects, which cause real change.

samstave 5y ago
>>“Intrinsic value” is whatever you define it to be. The guy who produces one tomato is worth more than the entire team who produces, say a mobile DLC/Gambling/betting game. CMV
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  Gambling game is of negative value so it is easy to beat that :)
pjerem 5y ago
> we produce nothing of intrinsic value Idk about that. You could say the same about a farmer or a banker or a teacher etc. Absolutely not. None of these professionals are ever working on superfluous projects of unknown worth to the society. In fact, their worth to the society is immediate and totally tangible: you couldn’t eat without the farmer’s work, you wouldn’t have a house without the banker, and you would be dumb without the teacher. However for most software projects, you would have a hard time to define their positive contribution to the society. Not saying useful and positive software doesn’t exists : there are plenty of those. But they are a visible minority in a sea of unknown, buggy, driven by bankable MVPs rather than useful and well crafted user centered software.
- cutler 5y ago
  "Wouldn't have a house without the banker". In some societies this is/was called usury - the opposite of intrinsic value. Banks leech value instead of creating any.

forgotmypw17 5y ago

I'm a little younger than you, so I want to ask this: If it were up to you, alone or with a team you're in charge of, do you think you could come up with a piece of software which would be less ephemeral and more lasting, perhaps being able to work unadministered or requiring minimum administration for a while, and be usable AND useful for years without any major changes? What would it look like, and what would its pieces be made of?

samstave 5y ago
I LOVE this challenging thought experiment. (I was on "commenting too fast" restrictions (Shakes fist @Dang)... --- With that said - I love this question! --- The premise, as interpreted: **"A self-teaching application which can adjust behavior and performance with minimal input"** --- Proposal A: [NMAP/PRISM/ETC for AI/ML systems] ((I'd be sure Palantir has this covered...)) This one will be long winded and off-the-cuff based on some work we did with tracking software in the past (people places, things, things-that-kill-people-places-and-things, etc) I would like an AI awareness layer whereby an AI/ML system can locate adjacent 'other' systems and either silently learn - or actively map/learn etc... We have had netmon tools for decades. I'd prefer a single firewall device; I plug it in at home - and its my VPN/PROXY that ALL my familial devices run through. ALL. So its just a simple VPN etc - all my mobile devices in the family of devices only route through my home device - which in-turn also keeps a small constellation of other nodes several hops out - such that BGP is sorta accomplished - cant get to primary node, go here instead. I've designed SDNs on mass-fiber btwn HK, JP, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc... Its doable (this is when Palo Alto Networks was just coming online with their product line...) Doing this in a manner which utilized AI/ML/etc to more intelligently setup these systems... Yes I could lead a team that does that.... Lets think this thing out into the zeitgeist and if its lame, then let it die - if it is not lame - then I will work with anyone who may want to explore it?
- forgotmypw17 5y ago
  What would the hardware for this look like. Is there anything more to it than two Ethernet ports, storage, RAM, and CPU? Anything beyond putting together existing components? Thank you for responding, I am intrigued by your ideas.

saurik 5y ago

Someone who maintains an event space will find that they have to do the same tasks every day and that their hard-fought progress is often destroyed by the very events that they host; meanwhile, even their optimized routines will randomly become obsolete due to changing circumstance of construction, government, and behavior... and yet I don't think it would be fair that they are producing nothing of intrinsic value: the value of Facebook isn't the software you developed while working there, but (as they like to say) "the friends we made along the way".

bigiain 5y ago
<snark> the cost of Facebook isn't the software you developed while working there, but (as I like to say) "the lives you destroyed along the way".

Zababa 5y ago

> I was like "yeah, im doing well professionally, making money - but at the end of the day, it was just "we produce nothing of intrinsic value" I think it depends on what you work on. For example, I once created a small program to split some file for my mother. She uses it every day at work and saves ~30 minutes of manual work. It's a source of pride for me. She can use that time to work on more substantial things, maybe come out of work earlier sometimes, and in general avoid some mind-numbing work. Many people use computers these days, and by being programmers we have a lot of power in our hands. You can reason that saving a bit of time will amount to nothing in the end, but it usually generates lots of positive feelings.

arthur_sav 5y ago

I'm not sure if it's the age but all the coders over 50 that i've met are grumpy and pessimists. You can choose the type of company and the value it provides... plenty of companies that produce meaningful software products.