7 ms·

Alan Turing in America

73 points by privatdozent 5y ago

adventured 5y ago
> I would not like the journey, and I detest America. Given the context it's rather fascinating how many negative things he has to say about the US. So he goes home to a land he prefers, a supposed land of superior civility and culture, and his own people torture and de facto murder him.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads into flamewar, let alone nationalistic flamewar. We're trying for something better than this here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you this kind of thing a shocking number of times before. Would you please stop posting like this to HN?
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  > his own people torture and de facto murder him In reality, this is a matter of considerable debate. The chemical castration period ended fourteen months before his death. The official inquest into his death ruled that he had committed suicide by consuming a cyanide-laced apple. Jack Copeland, an editor of volumes of Turing's work and Director of the Turing Archive for the History of Computing, has suggested that Turing's death may have been accidental, caused by the cyanide fumes produced by an experiment in his spare room, and that the coroner's investigation was poorly conducted.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > The official inquest into his death ruled that he had committed suicide by consuming a cyanide-laced apple. So the crown ruled his death a suicide, the same crown that tortured him and forced him into chemical castration. And we're supposed to believe that.
    - LeoPanthera 5y ago
      You do understand that if Turing killed himself accidentally, that's good for the "crown"? (The British government is not "the crown".) They would have no reason to cover up an accidental death, so I'm not sure why you've suddenly flipped your viewpoint here. Not everything is a conspiracy.
      - 908B64B197 5y ago
        > The British government is not "the crown". Who's the head of the British Government? > You do understand that if Turing killed himself accidentally, that's good for the "crown"? Yes. And strangely, that's what the crown's report said.
        thewakalix 5y ago
        Suicide is, by definition, not an accident.
        bidirectional 5y ago
        The head of the British government is Boris Johnson.
- bidirectional 5y ago
  Homosexuality was illegal in the US at the time, so I really cannot see your point.
beardyw 5y ago
This is such a fascinating insight. I didn't know this part of his story. Turing was a complex character as most brilliant people are. It saddens me what happened to him, but we must recognise that our children's children will be appalled at things we (collectively) stand by and approve of.
- angrais 5y ago
  Why is that so? What are some examples that our grandchildren will be appalled at? Perhaps the type of energy we consume (crude oil) or the type of food we eat (fast food) or the lack of sleep we get? I'd love to know your thoughts.
  - scarby2 5y ago
    > Why is that so? This has always been so. Every generation has done something another generation later finds to be deplorable or barbaric. I would assume that we would not be exempt from this. Oil, fast food and sleep however seem more benign, sort of like we look at the past and think, wow we have a much better way of doing this now.
  - npilk 5y ago
    For my part, I’d think of things like: +The internal combustion engine +Chemotherapy (which will hopefully seem shamefully primitive compared to future cancer treatments) +American football, which is already starting to seem barbaric IMO
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      I don't see why chemotherapy is something future generations would be appalled by us approving off. It works and it saves lives and is the best we can manage. Most people don't see the saving of lives given the best means possible as something to be appalled about people doing. They may be appalled at the the fact the was no other option but not at the people who actually did it. It's like condemning a doctor in rural Africa for not using cutting edge medicine but only what they can scrounge up, no sane person would do so but would rather view them more favorably for persevering despite such limitations.
davidw 5y ago
Doesn't mention his chance meeting with Lawrence Waterhouse.
- jpm_sd 5y ago
  "We rode bikes. His work was a lot more advanced. Einstein wouldn’t give me the time of day!"
- erentz 5y ago
  Such an amazing book. I’m now listening to the audiobook version for the first time. Extremely well narrated by William Drufris. And my mind is blown all over again at all the things Stephenson brings together in this book. The characters are great. All the interactions are great. Lots of adventure. Good humor. Lots of learning. Surprises me his stories were never picked up for an HBO TV series. Maybe not enough violence.
  - davidw 5y ago
    Would love to find more books like that. It captured so many things so well.
    - arethuza 5y ago
      I can strongly recommend the Baroque Cycle which is a set of prequels for Cryptonomicon set in the 17th and early 18th centuries and Fall; or, Dodge in Hell which, while not a direct sequel, shares at least on character and the Waterhouse family foundation. NB The audiobook versions of all of these are really good. Edit: Jack Shaftoe is probably one of my favourite fictional characters...
      - davidw 5y ago
        I've read the Baroque cycle. I meant more other authors. The reviews of Dodge in Hell were pretty bad - did you enjoy it?
        5y ago
zabzonk 5y ago
My Dad shook the hand of Turing when Turing was working at Manchester University, after the war. Dad was a good-looking rugby player who was interested in logic - I don't think he understood (at least at the time) why Turing was interested in him! Later on his own security clearance as a V-bomber captain might have been compromised, so he only talked about it to the family. So I have shaken the hand that shook the hand of Alan Turing. Which always makes me smile, and is my single claim to fame.
- jccc 5y ago
  Is there more detail to the story, or could it have been simply a common interest in logic and the like? As a gay man I can assure you that we aren't attracted to every allegedly good-looking male. (I really don't mean this to be snarky, but I know forum posts have a way of making it seem that way.)
  - zabzonk 5y ago
    Of course, neither I nor my (late, so I can't ask him) Dad knows what Turing's motivations were. These are just my possibly incorrect assumptions, following later conversations. V-force security checks were however a real thing when it came to homosexuality, and to certain extent heterosexuality - V-force liked nice, safe married couples with kids - but they certainly didn't always get them.
  - jshier 5y ago
    According to the biography on which the movie "The Imitation Game" was (very loosely) based ("Alan Turing: The Enigma"), Turing was rather direct when expressing interest in the men he knew. Much more so than I would expect for that time. There were several times where he straight up propositioned acquaintances. So it wouldn't entirely surprise me if there was an actual expression of interest in the original story.
    - jccc 5y ago
      Of course it's quite possible that's what Turing was doing in this case. I'm not saying it wasn't. My gentle objection from long experience is that gay men's motivations are so very often over-sexualized by people who are not gay men. Without good situational evidence, it's not a good idea to make that assumption.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
> The impossibility of getting a bath in the ordinary sense What's the problem getting a bath in America in the 1930's vs the UK? I'm confused.
- scarby2 5y ago
  I cant find a definitive answer here but possibly showers maybe? I know they were popular in the US before the UK. Maybe not by that much though. Or was the wipe down wash with hot water still the preferred method of bathing in the rooms at Princeton at the time?
JohnTHaller 5y ago
“Beyond the way they speak, there is only one (no two!) features of American life which I find really tiresome. The impossibility of getting a bath in the ordinary sense and their ideas on room temperature” — Alan Turing (1936) I'm familiar with the difference in 'room temperature' between here and the UK, but not what the idea of 'getting a bath in the ordinary sense' is. Anyone know?
- zabzonk 5y ago
  Showers rather than baths, perhaps?
  - JohnTHaller 5y ago
    I was thinking that originally, but in the 1930s?
- cthi 5y ago
  I came to the comments because I'm not familiar with the difference in room temperature between the US and UK. Can someone fill me in?
  - JohnTHaller 5y ago
    Like most countries, the UK's idea of 'room temperature' in the winter is quite a bit cooler than the US'.
    - foobiekr 5y ago
      Funny, I found Asia (and especially Japan) to be the polar opposite. Japan in the winter is a place where everywhere you go is too warm.
sigmar 5y ago
Good writeup. Seems like it should also mention that he was banned from entering the US in 1952 after being convicted of having sex with a man. After reading his dislike for ship travel, I have to imagine that the cheaper air travel in the 1950s would have made a third visit more likely (if not for that criminal charge and his subsequent suicide).
- DaedPsyker 5y ago
  Do you know if the ban was due to a blanket ban on anyone convicted of anything abroad or specific crimes? I mean the second one is bad for someone just being gay but the first would seem to catch people convicted of political crimes in the likes of Spain during the fascist era or the Soviet Union.
  - DaedPsyker 5y ago
    On a slight side note to this, I remember as a kid one of the common things cops said to us about drugs besides health was, if you get convicted you can't go to the US anymore. Just a bit of a chuckle I had there of the threat of not being able to visit the us was bigger than threat of jail.

73 points by privatdozent 5y ago

> I would not like the journey, and I detest America. Given the context it's rather fascinating how many negative things he has to say about the US. So he goes home to a land he prefers, a supposed land of superior civility and culture, and his own people torture and de facto murder him.

dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads into flamewar, let alone nationalistic flamewar. We're trying for something better than this here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you this kind of thing a shocking number of times before. Would you please stop posting like this to HN?
LeoPanthera 5y ago
> his own people torture and de facto murder him In reality, this is a matter of considerable debate. The chemical castration period ended fourteen months before his death. The official inquest into his death ruled that he had committed suicide by consuming a cyanide-laced apple. Jack Copeland, an editor of volumes of Turing's work and Director of the Turing Archive for the History of Computing, has suggested that Turing's death may have been accidental, caused by the cyanide fumes produced by an experiment in his spare room, and that the coroner's investigation was poorly conducted.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > The official inquest into his death ruled that he had committed suicide by consuming a cyanide-laced apple. So the crown ruled his death a suicide, the same crown that tortured him and forced him into chemical castration. And we're supposed to believe that.
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    You do understand that if Turing killed himself accidentally, that's good for the "crown"? (The British government is not "the crown".) They would have no reason to cover up an accidental death, so I'm not sure why you've suddenly flipped your viewpoint here. Not everything is a conspiracy.
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      > The British government is not "the crown". Who's the head of the British Government? > You do understand that if Turing killed himself accidentally, that's good for the "crown"? Yes. And strangely, that's what the crown's report said.
      - thewakalix 5y ago
        Suicide is, by definition, not an accident.
      - bidirectional 5y ago
        The head of the British government is Boris Johnson.
bidirectional 5y ago
Homosexuality was illegal in the US at the time, so I really cannot see your point.

beardyw 5y ago

This is such a fascinating insight. I didn't know this part of his story. Turing was a complex character as most brilliant people are. It saddens me what happened to him, but we must recognise that our children's children will be appalled at things we (collectively) stand by and approve of.

angrais 5y ago
Why is that so? What are some examples that our grandchildren will be appalled at? Perhaps the type of energy we consume (crude oil) or the type of food we eat (fast food) or the lack of sleep we get? I'd love to know your thoughts.
- scarby2 5y ago
  > Why is that so? This has always been so. Every generation has done something another generation later finds to be deplorable or barbaric. I would assume that we would not be exempt from this. Oil, fast food and sleep however seem more benign, sort of like we look at the past and think, wow we have a much better way of doing this now.
- npilk 5y ago
  For my part, I’d think of things like: +The internal combustion engine +Chemotherapy (which will hopefully seem shamefully primitive compared to future cancer treatments) +American football, which is already starting to seem barbaric IMO
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    I don't see why chemotherapy is something future generations would be appalled by us approving off. It works and it saves lives and is the best we can manage. Most people don't see the saving of lives given the best means possible as something to be appalled about people doing. They may be appalled at the the fact the was no other option but not at the people who actually did it. It's like condemning a doctor in rural Africa for not using cutting edge medicine but only what they can scrounge up, no sane person would do so but would rather view them more favorably for persevering despite such limitations.

davidw 5y ago

Doesn't mention his chance meeting with Lawrence Waterhouse.

jpm_sd 5y ago
"We rode bikes. His work was a lot more advanced. Einstein wouldn’t give me the time of day!"
erentz 5y ago
Such an amazing book. I’m now listening to the audiobook version for the first time. Extremely well narrated by William Drufris. And my mind is blown all over again at all the things Stephenson brings together in this book. The characters are great. All the interactions are great. Lots of adventure. Good humor. Lots of learning. Surprises me his stories were never picked up for an HBO TV series. Maybe not enough violence.
- davidw 5y ago
  Would love to find more books like that. It captured so many things so well.
  - arethuza 5y ago
    I can strongly recommend the Baroque Cycle which is a set of prequels for Cryptonomicon set in the 17th and early 18th centuries and Fall; or, Dodge in Hell which, while not a direct sequel, shares at least on character and the Waterhouse family foundation. NB The audiobook versions of all of these are really good. Edit: Jack Shaftoe is probably one of my favourite fictional characters...
    - davidw 5y ago
      I've read the Baroque cycle. I meant more other authors. The reviews of Dodge in Hell were pretty bad - did you enjoy it?
      - 5y ago

zabzonk 5y ago

My Dad shook the hand of Turing when Turing was working at Manchester University, after the war. Dad was a good-looking rugby player who was interested in logic - I don't think he understood (at least at the time) why Turing was interested in him! Later on his own security clearance as a V-bomber captain might have been compromised, so he only talked about it to the family. So I have shaken the hand that shook the hand of Alan Turing. Which always makes me smile, and is my single claim to fame.

jccc 5y ago
Is there more detail to the story, or could it have been simply a common interest in logic and the like? As a gay man I can assure you that we aren't attracted to every allegedly good-looking male. (I really don't mean this to be snarky, but I know forum posts have a way of making it seem that way.)
- zabzonk 5y ago
  Of course, neither I nor my (late, so I can't ask him) Dad knows what Turing's motivations were. These are just my possibly incorrect assumptions, following later conversations. V-force security checks were however a real thing when it came to homosexuality, and to certain extent heterosexuality - V-force liked nice, safe married couples with kids - but they certainly didn't always get them.
- jshier 5y ago
  According to the biography on which the movie "The Imitation Game" was (very loosely) based ("Alan Turing: The Enigma"), Turing was rather direct when expressing interest in the men he knew. Much more so than I would expect for that time. There were several times where he straight up propositioned acquaintances. So it wouldn't entirely surprise me if there was an actual expression of interest in the original story.
  - jccc 5y ago
    Of course it's quite possible that's what Turing was doing in this case. I'm not saying it wasn't. My gentle objection from long experience is that gay men's motivations are so very often over-sexualized by people who are not gay men. Without good situational evidence, it's not a good idea to make that assumption.

SavantIdiot 5y ago

> The impossibility of getting a bath in the ordinary sense What's the problem getting a bath in America in the 1930's vs the UK? I'm confused.

scarby2 5y ago
I cant find a definitive answer here but possibly showers maybe? I know they were popular in the US before the UK. Maybe not by that much though. Or was the wipe down wash with hot water still the preferred method of bathing in the rooms at Princeton at the time?

JohnTHaller 5y ago

“Beyond the way they speak, there is only one (no two!) features of American life which I find really tiresome. The impossibility of getting a bath in the ordinary sense and their ideas on room temperature” — Alan Turing (1936) I'm familiar with the difference in 'room temperature' between here and the UK, but not what the idea of 'getting a bath in the ordinary sense' is. Anyone know?

zabzonk 5y ago
Showers rather than baths, perhaps?
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  I was thinking that originally, but in the 1930s?
cthi 5y ago
I came to the comments because I'm not familiar with the difference in room temperature between the US and UK. Can someone fill me in?
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  Like most countries, the UK's idea of 'room temperature' in the winter is quite a bit cooler than the US'.
  - foobiekr 5y ago
    Funny, I found Asia (and especially Japan) to be the polar opposite. Japan in the winter is a place where everywhere you go is too warm.

sigmar 5y ago

Good writeup. Seems like it should also mention that he was banned from entering the US in 1952 after being convicted of having sex with a man. After reading his dislike for ship travel, I have to imagine that the cheaper air travel in the 1950s would have made a third visit more likely (if not for that criminal charge and his subsequent suicide).

DaedPsyker 5y ago
Do you know if the ban was due to a blanket ban on anyone convicted of anything abroad or specific crimes? I mean the second one is bad for someone just being gay but the first would seem to catch people convicted of political crimes in the likes of Spain during the fascist era or the Soviet Union.
- DaedPsyker 5y ago
  On a slight side note to this, I remember as a kid one of the common things cops said to us about drugs besides health was, if you get convicted you can't go to the US anymore. Just a bit of a chuckle I had there of the threat of not being able to visit the us was bigger than threat of jail.