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Why are there so many comments from seemingly different posters all saying the same thing on this, "I don't understand why humans are allowed to drive cars"? It

Why are there so many comments from seemingly different posters all saying the same thing on this, "I don't understand why humans are allowed to drive cars"? It feels kinda... culty? Or too similar to be a coincidence. It honestly probably is but these Tesla posts always bring out those types and it confuses me. Humans kill humans, do we want machines to start doing it on the road automatically now too?

dekhn 5y ago
I think the idea is, if humans were held to the standards machines are, we wouldn't let them drive. If you offered me a car that drove itself, and statistically, it killed people at the same rate as humans, but let me not have to drive, I'd take that. Nobody everybody agrees.
- w0m 5y ago
  Self determination > logic. Look at the American Gun debate as an example; carrying for self defense makes you drastically less safe by most metrics. But people prefer to have the modicum of self determinism over more consistent statistical safety.
  - ggreer 5y ago
    > carrying for self defense makes you drastically less safe by most metrics You're probably referencing studies such as Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault[1], which looked at whether people who were shot were carrying a gun at the time. It did not differentiate between criminals who were carrying illegally and law-abiding citizens who had concealed carry permits. The selection effect in such studies is clear: Many criminals who carry guns are involved in shootings. Also, many people carry guns because they are at a higher risk of being a victim of violent crime. I have yet to find a study that corrects for these confounders. 1. https://sci-hub.st/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099 https://sci-hub.st/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099
- notahacker 5y ago
  > I think the idea is, if humans were held to the standards machines are, we wouldn't let them drive. But the reverse is true. Humans receive driving bans and even criminal penalties for the sort of driving errors autonomous systems make without penalty.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
    The reverse is not true either. Tesla drivers will be fined and/or banned, even if FSD is in charge. When there'll be no driver, then Tesla will be fined or banned. No differences here, since the driver is in charge.
- llbeansandrice 5y ago
  > if humans were held to the standards machines are, we wouldn't let them drive. That's not how it even works though. When people crash or drive drunk there is a system to hand out consequences. What do you do when a Tesla drives into a monorail pole and causes millions in damage if the structural integrity is compromised? >statistically, it killed people at the same rate as humans You can't tell me a car that's at best an average not-murderer is a good sell. There are also so many ways to self-determine your risk while driving or traveling in general. A clear example is seat belts. Less than 10% of people in the US don't wear seat belts but a full 47% of the people that died in car accidents were not wearing one. [1] 1 - https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/seat-belts https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/seat-belts
darknavi 5y ago
Tesla fan here: The Tesla echo chamber is very real in online communities (here, reddit, etc.). I personally enjoy playing with the progress of autopilot over the years and I'd be sad to see it more restricted. I understand that it can be unsafe if left unsupervised but in reality I've never met someone who drives like that.
- misiti3780 5y ago
  With the new software update, you cant drive like that, as it it uses the camera on the rear-view mirror to track your eyes.
mikestew 5y ago
Witness some brands of motorcycle that are overpriced for such dated technology, yet have a line of people telling you how great they are. Hell, just read the replies in that Twitter thread. Oh, you thought it would be all "how are these allowed on the road?", did you? No, the narrative-supporting is strong in this one. When one spends that kind of money, some have a hard time admitting that their purchase wasn't all it was advertised to be.
sidibe 5y ago
These people seem to be under the illusion that FSD is getting near to being only as flawed as humans who can drive hundreds of thousands of miles without incident. By contrast from the couple dozen FSD Beta drivers who upload to youtube FSD Beta has a near-miss every couple minutes.
48snickers 5y ago
Part of the disconnect here is that the oft-repeated claims of how many miles have been safely driven by FSD versus humans is a bullshit number. Nearly every mile driven by FSD was driven by FSD AND a human that had to take the wheel when FSD failed.

dekhn 5y ago

I think the idea is, if humans were held to the standards machines are, we wouldn't let them drive. If you offered me a car that drove itself, and statistically, it killed people at the same rate as humans, but let me not have to drive, I'd take that. Nobody everybody agrees.

w0m 5y ago
Self determination > logic. Look at the American Gun debate as an example; carrying for self defense makes you drastically less safe by most metrics. But people prefer to have the modicum of self determinism over more consistent statistical safety.
- ggreer 5y ago
  > carrying for self defense makes you drastically less safe by most metrics You're probably referencing studies such as Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault[1], which looked at whether people who were shot were carrying a gun at the time. It did not differentiate between criminals who were carrying illegally and law-abiding citizens who had concealed carry permits. The selection effect in such studies is clear: Many criminals who carry guns are involved in shootings. Also, many people carry guns because they are at a higher risk of being a victim of violent crime. I have yet to find a study that corrects for these confounders. 1. https://sci-hub.st/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099 https://sci-hub.st/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099
notahacker 5y ago
> I think the idea is, if humans were held to the standards machines are, we wouldn't let them drive. But the reverse is true. Humans receive driving bans and even criminal penalties for the sort of driving errors autonomous systems make without penalty.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  The reverse is not true either. Tesla drivers will be fined and/or banned, even if FSD is in charge. When there'll be no driver, then Tesla will be fined or banned. No differences here, since the driver is in charge.
llbeansandrice 5y ago
> if humans were held to the standards machines are, we wouldn't let them drive. That's not how it even works though. When people crash or drive drunk there is a system to hand out consequences. What do you do when a Tesla drives into a monorail pole and causes millions in damage if the structural integrity is compromised? >statistically, it killed people at the same rate as humans You can't tell me a car that's at best an average not-murderer is a good sell. There are also so many ways to self-determine your risk while driving or traveling in general. A clear example is seat belts. Less than 10% of people in the US don't wear seat belts but a full 47% of the people that died in car accidents were not wearing one. [1] 1 - https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/seat-belts https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/seat-belts

darknavi 5y ago

Tesla fan here: The Tesla echo chamber is very real in online communities (here, reddit, etc.). I personally enjoy playing with the progress of autopilot over the years and I'd be sad to see it more restricted. I understand that it can be unsafe if left unsupervised but in reality I've never met someone who drives like that.

misiti3780 5y ago
With the new software update, you cant drive like that, as it it uses the camera on the rear-view mirror to track your eyes.

mikestew 5y ago

Witness some brands of motorcycle that are overpriced for such dated technology, yet have a line of people telling you how great they are. Hell, just read the replies in that Twitter thread. Oh, you thought it would be all "how are these allowed on the road?", did you? No, the narrative-supporting is strong in this one. When one spends that kind of money, some have a hard time admitting that their purchase wasn't all it was advertised to be.

sidibe 5y ago

These people seem to be under the illusion that FSD is getting near to being only as flawed as humans who can drive hundreds of thousands of miles without incident. By contrast from the couple dozen FSD Beta drivers who upload to youtube FSD Beta has a near-miss every couple minutes.

48snickers 5y ago

Part of the disconnect here is that the oft-repeated claims of how many miles have been safely driven by FSD versus humans is a bullshit number. Nearly every mile driven by FSD was driven by FSD AND a human that had to take the wheel when FSD failed.