11 ms·

Why Build Toys

207 points by akharris 5y ago

rpastuszak 5y ago
I'm not sure about you, but the more experienced I am, as a developer or "builder", the smaller things I end up making. For instance, I launched a bunch of games that are, frankly, more fun to watch, than to play (e.g. an All-hands meeting simulator: https://rafsters.itch.io/all-hands https://rafsters.itch.io/all-hands) or little tools this one https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/ https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/ (it's stupid, completely replaceable, but somewhat adorable). I come from a family with 4 generations of carpenters. It's a profession more similar to software engineering that most engineering jobs I can think of. The main difference is that in our domain so often the results of our work just don't feel real. If you're in this situation and this frustrates you, either build something small that people would use OR go ahead build something useless, but intentionally.
- ehnto 5y ago
  > an All-hands meeting simulator: Ha! Fantastic. > I come from a family with 4 generations of carpenters. It's a profession more similar to software engineering that most engineering jobs I can think of. The main difference is that in our domain so often the results of our work just don't feel real. That is the core issue I have with software development, it can feel ephemeral and extremely temporary. My remediation for this is partially game development too, since the artifact you create is immersive and directly enjoyed by others, it can make you feel surprisingly connected to the world.
  - spoonjim 5y ago
    It sucks how temporary software is, especially Web software. If you don’t pay the hosting bill it’s gone. If you don’t upgrade to 64 but it’s useless. Essentially it’s a plate spinning on a stick and it needs constant attention to survive. Contrast that to a fine piece of furniture which barring fire or flood can just sit abandoned in a warehouse for 300 years and then be even more valuable than it was initially.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      Thw flip side being that once built you can potentially reach thousands if not millions of people with your project.
      - geoduck14 5y ago
        Are you describing a toilet seat at the airport?
    - fossuser 5y ago
      This is some of the appeal of urbit to me: https://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-programming-from.html https://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-progr... That blog post is old, urbit does exist now.
      - hytdstd 5y ago
        This article is extremely long-winded. Do you mind providing a summary of what exactly appeals to you? Also: Is "C. Guy Yarvin" Curtis Yarvin?
        Matticus_Rex 5y ago
        > Also: Is "C. Guy Yarvin" Curtis Yarvin? Yeah, Urbit was Yarvin's project until 2019 when he left the company.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        fossuser 5y ago
        Core idea is how can you design a software system that avoids the pitfalls of spinning plate on a stick that requires constant maintenance as the world shifts around it, 'the big ball of mud'. One way to do this is to design a system where all events of the system can be replayed from start to finish in an immutable/repeatable way. Taking the advantages of state guarantees from functional language design and applying something similar to an entire OS. You can design something that abstracts this general design away from specific implementations of pieces that interact with the underlying system today (*nix). This podcast doesn't a decent job of introducing some of the concepts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding-urbit/id1504188804 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding-urbit/id... It's a little hard to summarize in a really short comment because there's a lot of new/first principles thinking that doesn't analogize super cleanly to the existing software stack people are familiar with (which is why it's interesting). Yeah that's Curtis Yarvin, I think his neo-reactionary politics are wrong [0], but the design and ideas behind urbit are good (and he's no longer directly involved in the project). [0]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-f...
- k2xl 5y ago
  Do you have a video of the all hands simulator?
- gregsadetsky 5y ago
  Loved the All-hands meeting simulator! Congrats
- samstave 5y ago
  You should add: "Make the world a better place?" to the agenda
- thearn4 5y ago
  I think this is related to why I got into stain glass window making as a pandemic hobby. As everything I was working on felt ephemeral and physically disconnecting, it was refreshing to take on something both creative and tangible.
- frompdx 5y ago
  Out of curiosity, what did you use to make the all hands simulator?
  - imhoguy 5y ago
    "UnityPlayer.dll" tells me it is Unity. Works nicely on Linux Wine too.
  - rpastuszak 5y ago
    Procreate -> Photoshop -> Unity It's a really fun workflow: I doodle on my tablet, airdrop the psd, convert to PSB (makes skinning/rigging easier) and import into Unity to animate. What makes it fun/rewarding is the short feedback loop, in less than 1-2 minutes you get something to play with.
- hyperpallium2 5y ago
  Conjecture: the fundamental distinction between software engineering and other engineering disciplines is the lack of DEs. Though calculus plays a role in information theory (and of course in some application domains such as computational fluid dynamics and machine learning). Software engineering is more like a trade or craft, except that it's new and still evolving.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    Software engineering seems like it might, eventually, become actual engineering when it matures a bit. Most other forms of engineering have had centuries or even longer to figure things out. In software, we started with a programmable loom, stagnated for a few centuries, then all at once had tools and systems too complex to understand all of their implications. It would be like taking apothecaries from the 1700s and putting them in the middle of a massive industrial chemical plant and hoping they make useful things that don't break easily or have design flaws.
- aarongraham 5y ago
  That all-hands simulator is fantastic. We once worked together and have attended some of the same all-hands meetings. Your game is about as painful as the real thing, which makes it even more hilarious.
  - rpastuszak 5y ago
    > your game is about as painful as the real thing, which makes it even more hilarious. Hi Aaron! And, yes, you're 100% correct--I've had more of those recently so needed an outlet. I'm (mildly) sorry you had to go through this again.
- nicbou 5y ago
  I wholeheartedly support this. These "useless" project rekindled my love for programming. They're the ones I enjoy working on, because I know from the start that they're only for fun.
deleted 5y ago
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the_only_law 5y ago
I get disappointed when I see someone build something cool, but maybe not commercializable, and the comments come in asking: “yeah, but how are you planning to monetize it”. 90% of the side projects I embark in are likely to have no commercial value, but are pretty cool, at least I’d like to think.
- dylan604 5y ago
  It's more about the journey than the destination on most of my side projects. Yes, the end product is meant to be useable by me (hence me expending the effort). However, I tend to learn new build techniques or it's a chance to hone a skill. Do all of my solder joints look the same/consistent (hopefully good)? Did I really need to make a biscuit join? Could I have make a cleaner cut into this plastic using a hot knife vs a spinning blade? You know non-software nerdy hacker stuff.
- packetslave 5y ago
  and the ever-popular snide reply: "you have too much free time on your hands"
  - RodgerTheGreat 5y ago
    "You have too much time undevoted to the advancement of capitalism on your hands" just doesn't roll off the tongue as well, I suppose.
  - inlikealamb 5y ago
    There's also the counter-perspective of "wow, you must be rich" which is something I feel (but don't say) when someone has enough free time to build anything frivolous. I work full-time and freelance on the side because I have no financial support system and it's terrifying. I've burnt myself out a couple times and the only reason I kept going was the inevitability of financial ruin.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- rubyn00bie 5y ago
mattpratt 5y ago
Similar to this one from a16z: https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-next-big-thing-will-start-out-looking-like-a-toy https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-next-big-thing-will-start-... While Aaron's essay approaches the analogy from the perspective of those building, the linked essay approaches it from the market's perspective. For builders, don't take yourself so seriously -- but on the flip side, don't be so quick to write new things off as silly.
svilen_dobrev 5y ago
IMO making toys is the hardest thing of all designs... too long-shot/perspective to cover.. like while some adult may be able to tell what he likes/dislikes about a thing, it not so for kids.. esp. in long run. it's a blessing that some (physical or not at all) toys still exist without being monetized.. although the trends with everything-being-appz might kill that some day maybe OT, but some 10+y ago, i passed through few continents and cultures within 3-4 months, and while looking for toys for the kids to bring home from that journey, in plenty of places, i realized something.. the culture/society is somehow representable by what toys it makes for it's kids. Somewhat like the cultural dimensions thing, but in different aspects.. Like shallow vs deep, curiousness vs just-grinding, beautiful vs ugly, well crafted vs cheaply, etc. And funny, Rich/expensive as $$$ doesnot always correspond to richness of toy-experience/perception. Of course it's rather subjective, YMMV
- esperent 5y ago
  > the culture/society is somehow representable by what toys it makes for it's kids. Can you give some examples? I've spent the last 7 years doing a lot of travelling around Asia, India, and Europe. I've observed quite the opposite, so I'm curious to know what you've seen that I've missed. Currently I live in Vietnam and I polled a couple of Vietnamese people who are sitting with me about what their children play with (it turned into a really interesting breakfast conversation, so thanks!). Their answers: Boys play with cars, water guns, toy soldiers, and such. Girls play with dolls, toy kitchens, toy houses. Both play with modeling clay, coloring pens etc. (or Lego if the parents are progressive). Boys role play as soldiers, girls as princesses. Both role play as things like shopkeepers. This also includes data from people's childhoods 30 year's ago so I don't think it's a sign of Westernization. The main difference over the past 30 years is more plastic (of course) and that many people are much richer now. The main difference I've seen is that electric bikes for older children/teens are very popular here (I think bikes are a tool rather than a toy though). This seems very similar to what children in Europe play with, and ties in with my observations in other countries. But of course, even a lifetime of travel would only give me insight into a fraction of cultures so more info is welcome. The big exception is in remote areas in the countryside where people are very poor and can't afford many toys.
svilen_dobrev 5y ago
now on topic.. quoting "Business is about making money and working with customers. These are very serious and scary things. Toys are for playing and trying new things. This isn’t serious at all": Maybe the problem is that what is called/accepted as "serious" is the opposite of it? A toy for shapeing a mind (of kids) may be looooots more serious/important that some $$$$$ made per-day.. kind-a the 4th planet the little prince visited..
- TheRealNGenius 5y ago
  quaint book - only one I've read in English and French. I'm particularly fond of the fox: It's only with the heart that one can see clearly. What's essential, is invisible to the eye.
MrLeap 5y ago
The latent value of irreverence has been a pillar of the project I've been working on full time since last October. Like, I just added printer support.. https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1413803026062745600 https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1413803026062745600 But for the sake of the trees I'm making it grueling https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414411610844803072 https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414411610844803072 https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414678420177440769 https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414678420177440769 Does anyone even own a printer these days? Who knows? Don't care! The feature's true purpose is to try and draw out a smile, and from there maybe a look. The fact it actually works is a nice side effect.
azhenley 5y ago
Exactly. I have a lot of the same feelings, so 6 weeks ago I wrote a similar blog post, "Why I prefer making making useless stuff". I haven't quite figured out how to convert my "useless stuff" into a company yet though... Blog post: https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~azh/blog/makinguselessstuff.html https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~azh/blog/makinguselessstuff.html HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27256867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27256867 Reddit discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/njcpxt/why_i_prefer_making_useless_stuff/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/njcpxt/why_i_p...
- _benj 5y ago
  I loved that article!! Ever since then I've been playing with some techs that I've been curious since forever but without a "project" to try them I hadn't... The notion of doing something for which I don't care about github stars or readability or even good programming practices (1000L files!) it's SO FREEING! Thanks for that article, it has helped me found the joy I had when I was just poking around on the computer, which I've missed now that I'm a "professional"...
  - Nathanba 5y ago
    I noticed the same about myself but I still wonder if this isn't just a character weakness. Why exactly can't I be just as careless and free about a project that I'm serious about in the sense of its potential to make money if executed fully? I do think it's a weakness.
    - _benj 5y ago
      Interesting take. I used to think that but looking at psychology, things like the "flow" state or the book "Deep Work" there's something to be said about out enjoyment of something and the motivations for why we do them. When my motivation to do something is money, even if I find whatever I do interesting, I'm only doing it for money. Looking at it differently, if I wouldn't do what I'm doing if I wasn't being paid for it there the motivation is not the activity itself but the result. Doesn't "careless" and "serious" are opposite to each other? I find that when I'm working on a project that I'm "serious" about the focus/motivation/purpose is not the project but the result. The "serious about it" is usually something outside of the project. You know, intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. On the other side, I'm right now working really hard to be careless an free about a new project that I'm actually serious about, even as I'm working for it to make money, but the only way that I can accomplish that for myself is by approaching the project as an experiment/adventure and after exploring the worst case scenario realizing that even if I lose $x finite amount, I'm fine with that. It's quite hard for me tho, maybe you have stronger character than I!
jgerrish 5y ago
Great article. I'm happy developers have the ability to build and work on things they love. And create something fun. But, at the same time, endless warnings about the seriousness of toys becoming monster businesses would be more believable if aborting companies and anti-trust wasn't still a shitshow a century after the big trusts. This isn't the author's fault, but mixing "Let's have a conversation on Big Tech." with warnings about havoc seems disingenuous at best. We understand that organizations are these complex things that take over everything and shit everywhere. And at the same time build things that make you smile and facilitate community. We don't as citizens have all the tools to manage that without drama.
dimatura 5y ago
Anki (the robotics toy company, not the flash cards) comes to mind. IIRC they had aspirations to build non-toy tech. It didn't work out, though, as they shut down last year. It's unfortunate - I got one of their vector robots for cheap after they shut down and it's a fun little gadget.
- 1-6 5y ago
  I saw the Anki being demoed during WWDC 2013. At first, I was intrigued but the price turned me off. I couldn't find a justification in getting one especially when Oculuses were competing for my $$$. I generally agree that toys do have their purpose. Those who are involved in AWS DeepRacer competitions can probably attest to that.
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slmjkdbtl 5y ago
It's insane people automatically use the word "useless" for anything that cannot directly or indirectly turn into capital or material gain, a lot of cases it just brings happiness directly (which is the desired result of any capital and material gain).
juliend2 5y ago
My favorite tool for thinking visually is totally in that mindset: https://kinopio.club/ https://kinopio.club/
ineedasername 5y ago
Airbnb looked like a doofy hipster thing to hotels for a very long time. And then, when it was too late, they realized that it wasn’t a toy at all. I always thought Airbnb was an awful idea. I didn't pay attention to it for a long time, except to be surprised it was still around when I would see it mentioned. I'm sure the big hotel companies feel worse about that mentality than I do, though it's probably a good thing I'm not a venture capitalist.
sircastor 5y ago
A friend of mine has spent a lot of time recently programming his own ray tracer in OpenGL. He has no intention of turning it into work, not in developing the skill into one that would change his career trajectory. He just thought it would be cool to learn how to make a ray-tracer. I came across an article[1] recently that suggests that everything we do doesn’t have to turn into a business. I get why people want that, but my anxiety dropped a bit when I decided to just build the thing I wanted to. [1] https://repeller.com/trap-of-turning-hobbies-into-hustles/ https://repeller.com/trap-of-turning-hobbies-into-hustles/
wanderingmind 5y ago
The toys that you build not necessarily have to make the users happy, but it needs to connect at some emotional level. The more visceral the emotion, the better is the connection. For example, I'm never happy when I use blind in fact it mostly just makes me depressed. But it invokes a deep emotional reaction that I want to go back to using it time and again. Similarly, the echo chambers in social media don't make people happy but provide an emotional vent that makes these applications a huge success.
defnmacro 5y ago
I love this idea to get at least a pipeline of people to talk to in order to get closer to PMF. Sometimes its abysmally hard to even get people to get feedback from in the early days of a product it's like the great filter for pre-seed/early-seed startups are you actually building something someone, anyone, even just like one person wants to use? However, this could be a huge trap for founders or people with passion projects which they just want to be passion projects. I guess the one thing I've realized is the problem with this is the one more feature trap. Sometimes those people who like your toy will never pay for it, which may be fine depending on your goals, but the issue is there just as relentlessly demanding as paying customers. It's demoralizing to have a side-hobby project which you don't want to monetize but still has all the demands from "adopters/customers" that a paid solution would. It just destroys your passion for that project because it ultimately it just becomes work. Really charging for a product is great and I think hacker culture seems to dismiss it because its not in the ethos but if there's anything in retrospect I think I've learned so far with my many failed side-projects is charging for them is the best way to have a great personal experience and best experience for who your building that product for. Mostly because it aligns incentives appropriately. As much as I've enjoyed some of my passion projects I can't think of one I ended up "finishing" which I wouldn't get some monetary gain from. Because let's be honest whose passionate about setting up a Jenkins server, or implementing git checks, writing unit tests or creating onboarding documentation for cranky free or OS users? At a certain point a successful side-project/product requires you to do things you wont enjoy doing, and honestly some of those things may be the most important things you do for the "success" of that side-project/product. I'd rather be spending that time with loved ones, enjoying the sun, which is ultimately far more rewarding than a few git stars or upvotes for ego. With that being said I think if you utilize this approach which is basically just freemium for B2B like projects it could be a powerful step towards finding your ideal customer and getting paid users, but it has to be just that a step towards acquiring paid users. Just my 2c

207 points by akharris 5y ago

I'm not sure about you, but the more experienced I am, as a developer or "builder", the smaller things I end up making. For instance, I launched a bunch of games that are, frankly, more fun to watch, than to play (e.g. an All-hands meeting simulator: https://rafsters.itch.io/all-hands https://rafsters.itch.io/all-hands) or little tools this one https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/ https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/ (it's stupid, completely replaceable, but somewhat adorable). I come from a family with 4 generations of carpenters. It's a profession more similar to software engineering that most engineering jobs I can think of. The main difference is that in our domain so often the results of our work just don't feel real. If you're in this situation and this frustrates you, either build something small that people would use OR go ahead build something useless, but intentionally.

ehnto 5y ago
> an All-hands meeting simulator: Ha! Fantastic. > I come from a family with 4 generations of carpenters. It's a profession more similar to software engineering that most engineering jobs I can think of. The main difference is that in our domain so often the results of our work just don't feel real. That is the core issue I have with software development, it can feel ephemeral and extremely temporary. My remediation for this is partially game development too, since the artifact you create is immersive and directly enjoyed by others, it can make you feel surprisingly connected to the world.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  It sucks how temporary software is, especially Web software. If you don’t pay the hosting bill it’s gone. If you don’t upgrade to 64 but it’s useless. Essentially it’s a plate spinning on a stick and it needs constant attention to survive. Contrast that to a fine piece of furniture which barring fire or flood can just sit abandoned in a warehouse for 300 years and then be even more valuable than it was initially.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    Thw flip side being that once built you can potentially reach thousands if not millions of people with your project.
    - geoduck14 5y ago
      Are you describing a toilet seat at the airport?
  - fossuser 5y ago
    This is some of the appeal of urbit to me: https://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-programming-from.html https://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-progr... That blog post is old, urbit does exist now.
    - hytdstd 5y ago
      This article is extremely long-winded. Do you mind providing a summary of what exactly appeals to you? Also: Is "C. Guy Yarvin" Curtis Yarvin?
      - Matticus_Rex 5y ago
        > Also: Is "C. Guy Yarvin" Curtis Yarvin? Yeah, Urbit was Yarvin's project until 2019 when he left the company.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - fossuser 5y ago
        Core idea is how can you design a software system that avoids the pitfalls of spinning plate on a stick that requires constant maintenance as the world shifts around it, 'the big ball of mud'. One way to do this is to design a system where all events of the system can be replayed from start to finish in an immutable/repeatable way. Taking the advantages of state guarantees from functional language design and applying something similar to an entire OS. You can design something that abstracts this general design away from specific implementations of pieces that interact with the underlying system today (*nix). This podcast doesn't a decent job of introducing some of the concepts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding-urbit/id1504188804 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding-urbit/id... It's a little hard to summarize in a really short comment because there's a lot of new/first principles thinking that doesn't analogize super cleanly to the existing software stack people are familiar with (which is why it's interesting). Yeah that's Curtis Yarvin, I think his neo-reactionary politics are wrong [0], but the design and ideas behind urbit are good (and he's no longer directly involved in the project). [0]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-f...
k2xl 5y ago
Do you have a video of the all hands simulator?
gregsadetsky 5y ago
Loved the All-hands meeting simulator! Congrats
samstave 5y ago
You should add: "Make the world a better place?" to the agenda
thearn4 5y ago
I think this is related to why I got into stain glass window making as a pandemic hobby. As everything I was working on felt ephemeral and physically disconnecting, it was refreshing to take on something both creative and tangible.
frompdx 5y ago
Out of curiosity, what did you use to make the all hands simulator?
- imhoguy 5y ago
  "UnityPlayer.dll" tells me it is Unity. Works nicely on Linux Wine too.
- rpastuszak 5y ago
  Procreate -> Photoshop -> Unity It's a really fun workflow: I doodle on my tablet, airdrop the psd, convert to PSB (makes skinning/rigging easier) and import into Unity to animate. What makes it fun/rewarding is the short feedback loop, in less than 1-2 minutes you get something to play with.
hyperpallium2 5y ago
Conjecture: the fundamental distinction between software engineering and other engineering disciplines is the lack of DEs. Though calculus plays a role in information theory (and of course in some application domains such as computational fluid dynamics and machine learning). Software engineering is more like a trade or craft, except that it's new and still evolving.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Software engineering seems like it might, eventually, become actual engineering when it matures a bit. Most other forms of engineering have had centuries or even longer to figure things out. In software, we started with a programmable loom, stagnated for a few centuries, then all at once had tools and systems too complex to understand all of their implications. It would be like taking apothecaries from the 1700s and putting them in the middle of a massive industrial chemical plant and hoping they make useful things that don't break easily or have design flaws.
aarongraham 5y ago
That all-hands simulator is fantastic. We once worked together and have attended some of the same all-hands meetings. Your game is about as painful as the real thing, which makes it even more hilarious.
- rpastuszak 5y ago
  > your game is about as painful as the real thing, which makes it even more hilarious. Hi Aaron! And, yes, you're 100% correct--I've had more of those recently so needed an outlet. I'm (mildly) sorry you had to go through this again.
nicbou 5y ago
I wholeheartedly support this. These "useless" project rekindled my love for programming. They're the ones I enjoy working on, because I know from the start that they're only for fun.

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the_only_law 5y ago

I get disappointed when I see someone build something cool, but maybe not commercializable, and the comments come in asking: “yeah, but how are you planning to monetize it”. 90% of the side projects I embark in are likely to have no commercial value, but are pretty cool, at least I’d like to think.

dylan604 5y ago
It's more about the journey than the destination on most of my side projects. Yes, the end product is meant to be useable by me (hence me expending the effort). However, I tend to learn new build techniques or it's a chance to hone a skill. Do all of my solder joints look the same/consistent (hopefully good)? Did I really need to make a biscuit join? Could I have make a cleaner cut into this plastic using a hot knife vs a spinning blade? You know non-software nerdy hacker stuff.
packetslave 5y ago
and the ever-popular snide reply: "you have too much free time on your hands"
- RodgerTheGreat 5y ago
  "You have too much time undevoted to the advancement of capitalism on your hands" just doesn't roll off the tongue as well, I suppose.
- inlikealamb 5y ago
  There's also the counter-perspective of "wow, you must be rich" which is something I feel (but don't say) when someone has enough free time to build anything frivolous. I work full-time and freelance on the side because I have no financial support system and it's terrifying. I've burnt myself out a couple times and the only reason I kept going was the inevitability of financial ruin.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rubyn00bie 5y ago

mattpratt 5y ago

Similar to this one from a16z: https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-next-big-thing-will-start-out-looking-like-a-toy https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-next-big-thing-will-start-... While Aaron's essay approaches the analogy from the perspective of those building, the linked essay approaches it from the market's perspective. For builders, don't take yourself so seriously -- but on the flip side, don't be so quick to write new things off as silly.

svilen_dobrev 5y ago

IMO making toys is the hardest thing of all designs... too long-shot/perspective to cover.. like while some adult may be able to tell what he likes/dislikes about a thing, it not so for kids.. esp. in long run. it's a blessing that some (physical or not at all) toys still exist without being monetized.. although the trends with everything-being-appz might kill that some day maybe OT, but some 10+y ago, i passed through few continents and cultures within 3-4 months, and while looking for toys for the kids to bring home from that journey, in plenty of places, i realized something.. the culture/society is somehow representable by what toys it makes for it's kids. Somewhat like the cultural dimensions thing, but in different aspects.. Like shallow vs deep, curiousness vs just-grinding, beautiful vs ugly, well crafted vs cheaply, etc. And funny, Rich/expensive as $$$ doesnot always correspond to richness of toy-experience/perception. Of course it's rather subjective, YMMV

esperent 5y ago
> the culture/society is somehow representable by what toys it makes for it's kids. Can you give some examples? I've spent the last 7 years doing a lot of travelling around Asia, India, and Europe. I've observed quite the opposite, so I'm curious to know what you've seen that I've missed. Currently I live in Vietnam and I polled a couple of Vietnamese people who are sitting with me about what their children play with (it turned into a really interesting breakfast conversation, so thanks!). Their answers: Boys play with cars, water guns, toy soldiers, and such. Girls play with dolls, toy kitchens, toy houses. Both play with modeling clay, coloring pens etc. (or Lego if the parents are progressive). Boys role play as soldiers, girls as princesses. Both role play as things like shopkeepers. This also includes data from people's childhoods 30 year's ago so I don't think it's a sign of Westernization. The main difference over the past 30 years is more plastic (of course) and that many people are much richer now. The main difference I've seen is that electric bikes for older children/teens are very popular here (I think bikes are a tool rather than a toy though). This seems very similar to what children in Europe play with, and ties in with my observations in other countries. But of course, even a lifetime of travel would only give me insight into a fraction of cultures so more info is welcome. The big exception is in remote areas in the countryside where people are very poor and can't afford many toys.

svilen_dobrev 5y ago

now on topic.. quoting "Business is about making money and working with customers. These are very serious and scary things. Toys are for playing and trying new things. This isn’t serious at all": Maybe the problem is that what is called/accepted as "serious" is the opposite of it? A toy for shapeing a mind (of kids) may be looooots more serious/important that some $$$$$ made per-day.. kind-a the 4th planet the little prince visited..

TheRealNGenius 5y ago
quaint book - only one I've read in English and French. I'm particularly fond of the fox: It's only with the heart that one can see clearly. What's essential, is invisible to the eye.

MrLeap 5y ago

The latent value of irreverence has been a pillar of the project I've been working on full time since last October. Like, I just added printer support.. https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1413803026062745600 https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1413803026062745600 But for the sake of the trees I'm making it grueling https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414411610844803072 https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414411610844803072 https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414678420177440769 https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414678420177440769 Does anyone even own a printer these days? Who knows? Don't care! The feature's true purpose is to try and draw out a smile, and from there maybe a look. The fact it actually works is a nice side effect.

azhenley 5y ago

Exactly. I have a lot of the same feelings, so 6 weeks ago I wrote a similar blog post, "Why I prefer making making useless stuff". I haven't quite figured out how to convert my "useless stuff" into a company yet though... Blog post: https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~azh/blog/makinguselessstuff.html https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~azh/blog/makinguselessstuff.html HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27256867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27256867 Reddit discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/njcpxt/why_i_prefer_making_useless_stuff/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/njcpxt/why_i_p...

_benj 5y ago
I loved that article!! Ever since then I've been playing with some techs that I've been curious since forever but without a "project" to try them I hadn't... The notion of doing something for which I don't care about github stars or readability or even good programming practices (1000L files!) it's SO FREEING! Thanks for that article, it has helped me found the joy I had when I was just poking around on the computer, which I've missed now that I'm a "professional"...
- Nathanba 5y ago
  I noticed the same about myself but I still wonder if this isn't just a character weakness. Why exactly can't I be just as careless and free about a project that I'm serious about in the sense of its potential to make money if executed fully? I do think it's a weakness.
  - _benj 5y ago
    Interesting take. I used to think that but looking at psychology, things like the "flow" state or the book "Deep Work" there's something to be said about out enjoyment of something and the motivations for why we do them. When my motivation to do something is money, even if I find whatever I do interesting, I'm only doing it for money. Looking at it differently, if I wouldn't do what I'm doing if I wasn't being paid for it there the motivation is not the activity itself but the result. Doesn't "careless" and "serious" are opposite to each other? I find that when I'm working on a project that I'm "serious" about the focus/motivation/purpose is not the project but the result. The "serious about it" is usually something outside of the project. You know, intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. On the other side, I'm right now working really hard to be careless an free about a new project that I'm actually serious about, even as I'm working for it to make money, but the only way that I can accomplish that for myself is by approaching the project as an experiment/adventure and after exploring the worst case scenario realizing that even if I lose $x finite amount, I'm fine with that. It's quite hard for me tho, maybe you have stronger character than I!

jgerrish 5y ago

Great article. I'm happy developers have the ability to build and work on things they love. And create something fun. But, at the same time, endless warnings about the seriousness of toys becoming monster businesses would be more believable if aborting companies and anti-trust wasn't still a shitshow a century after the big trusts. This isn't the author's fault, but mixing "Let's have a conversation on Big Tech." with warnings about havoc seems disingenuous at best. We understand that organizations are these complex things that take over everything and shit everywhere. And at the same time build things that make you smile and facilitate community. We don't as citizens have all the tools to manage that without drama.

dimatura 5y ago

Anki (the robotics toy company, not the flash cards) comes to mind. IIRC they had aspirations to build non-toy tech. It didn't work out, though, as they shut down last year. It's unfortunate - I got one of their vector robots for cheap after they shut down and it's a fun little gadget.

1-6 5y ago
I saw the Anki being demoed during WWDC 2013. At first, I was intrigued but the price turned me off. I couldn't find a justification in getting one especially when Oculuses were competing for my $$$. I generally agree that toys do have their purpose. Those who are involved in AWS DeepRacer competitions can probably attest to that.

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slmjkdbtl 5y ago

It's insane people automatically use the word "useless" for anything that cannot directly or indirectly turn into capital or material gain, a lot of cases it just brings happiness directly (which is the desired result of any capital and material gain).

juliend2 5y ago

My favorite tool for thinking visually is totally in that mindset: https://kinopio.club/ https://kinopio.club/

ineedasername 5y ago

Airbnb looked like a doofy hipster thing to hotels for a very long time. And then, when it was too late, they realized that it wasn’t a toy at all. I always thought Airbnb was an awful idea. I didn't pay attention to it for a long time, except to be surprised it was still around when I would see it mentioned. I'm sure the big hotel companies feel worse about that mentality than I do, though it's probably a good thing I'm not a venture capitalist.

sircastor 5y ago

A friend of mine has spent a lot of time recently programming his own ray tracer in OpenGL. He has no intention of turning it into work, not in developing the skill into one that would change his career trajectory. He just thought it would be cool to learn how to make a ray-tracer. I came across an article[1] recently that suggests that everything we do doesn’t have to turn into a business. I get why people want that, but my anxiety dropped a bit when I decided to just build the thing I wanted to. [1] https://repeller.com/trap-of-turning-hobbies-into-hustles/ https://repeller.com/trap-of-turning-hobbies-into-hustles/

wanderingmind 5y ago

The toys that you build not necessarily have to make the users happy, but it needs to connect at some emotional level. The more visceral the emotion, the better is the connection. For example, I'm never happy when I use blind in fact it mostly just makes me depressed. But it invokes a deep emotional reaction that I want to go back to using it time and again. Similarly, the echo chambers in social media don't make people happy but provide an emotional vent that makes these applications a huge success.

defnmacro 5y ago

I love this idea to get at least a pipeline of people to talk to in order to get closer to PMF. Sometimes its abysmally hard to even get people to get feedback from in the early days of a product it's like the great filter for pre-seed/early-seed startups are you actually building something someone, anyone, even just like one person wants to use? However, this could be a huge trap for founders or people with passion projects which they just want to be passion projects. I guess the one thing I've realized is the problem with this is the one more feature trap. Sometimes those people who like your toy will never pay for it, which may be fine depending on your goals, but the issue is there just as relentlessly demanding as paying customers. It's demoralizing to have a side-hobby project which you don't want to monetize but still has all the demands from "adopters/customers" that a paid solution would. It just destroys your passion for that project because it ultimately it just becomes work. Really charging for a product is great and I think hacker culture seems to dismiss it because its not in the ethos but if there's anything in retrospect I think I've learned so far with my many failed side-projects is charging for them is the best way to have a great personal experience and best experience for who your building that product for. Mostly because it aligns incentives appropriately. As much as I've enjoyed some of my passion projects I can't think of one I ended up "finishing" which I wouldn't get some monetary gain from. Because let's be honest whose passionate about setting up a Jenkins server, or implementing git checks, writing unit tests or creating onboarding documentation for cranky free or OS users? At a certain point a successful side-project/product requires you to do things you wont enjoy doing, and honestly some of those things may be the most important things you do for the "success" of that side-project/product. I'd rather be spending that time with loved ones, enjoying the sun, which is ultimately far more rewarding than a few git stars or upvotes for ego. With that being said I think if you utilize this approach which is basically just freemium for B2B like projects it could be a powerful step towards finding your ideal customer and getting paid users, but it has to be just that a step towards acquiring paid users. Just my 2c