4 ms·

Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that i

Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compounds, it could heal itself from cancer." I do my best to keep an open mind because, hey, a lot of bits and pieces sound plausible, but whenever I get to lines about cancer-curing food, I begin to doubt the truth, validity or factual nature of anything else that was said on the topic. Aside from that, the biggest question is always going to be "Does it scale to growing sufficient food for 10 billion people?" Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but whenever food comes up keep in mind that end game. If a particular agricultural system could produce food at lower energy costs, more sustainably, "better", but could only feed a billion people applied globally, it's only an acceptable solution in very particular moral frameworks.

mathgladiator 5y ago
I've experienced this, and I've learned to search for the grains of truth. At core, the people doing this are highly disagreeable, and so they form their own opinions and go deep. I think going deep into crazy is natural, and the hard question is trying to balance that out with a deeper truth. At core, I think there is a deeper value in being the control group outside of the modern world. So, can food cure cancer? I don't know, but it may be worth looking into. Amish, for instance, have 40% less cancer. Is it the food? the air? the bacteria? the hard work? No Idea! Myself, I'm getting firmly on the fasting train. I eat every other day, and I feel great.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  AFAIK Amish people consume less alcohol and tobacco than the average American. Could this be a factor in their lower cancer rates? Also - who diagnoses Amish people for cancer? Can there be a higher "dark number" of undetected cancers among them than among the general population?
- rhacker 5y ago
  It may not be that it cures cancer, but that it stops causing it. Food that is sourced without chemicals, or pesticides.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  While cancer is lower, their life expectancy is around the US average. US average lifespan isn’t something to write home about.
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    Does that account for infant mortality? Life expectancy should really only be talked about in terms of expected lifespan of someone who's already made it to say 3 years old. Otherwise, we get a very distorted view of modern medicine's ability to stave off death. Modern medicine has really done well at reducing infant mortality though.
    - lostlogin 5y ago
      I agree, but you also distort things by excluding infants, but if that group are included in a separate statistic it would seem ok.
- relaxing 5y ago
  The study of cancer among the Amish found lower incidence of only a subset of cancers, essentially the ones related to not drinking or smoking, sun exposure (wearing long clothes and big hats), and having few sexual partners. There’s no mystery.
amanaplanacanal 5y ago
A person could totally be an expert on soil and sustainable agriculture and know nothing useful about medicine. In fact, that is what I would expect. Listen to the experts on their subject of expertise, and take the rest with a huge grain of salt.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  The problem is deciding whether someone is actually an expect in a subject area where I'm not. People can say things that are patently absurd about one field while being an expert in another, but I also can't just be completely credulous in treating any assertion about any subject I do not understand as true. I don't really have much else to do but build out from a network of trust rooted in people who seem competent and clear-minded by whatever criteria I can judge.
samatman 5y ago
That's a reasonable response, but it's actually totally normal to have expertise in one domain and totally wacky ideas in another one. It's even possible to combine these things, although that's a dangerous game to play. Biodynamic agriculture is a great example of this, Rudolph Steiner's model of how agriculture (and scientific matters in general) is... heterodox... but biodynamic farms regularly produce good crops of quality food, and the practices cultivate healthy soil by any objective measure you would care for. I wouldn't go casually trying this with medicine, where practitioners are more likely to do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, rather than the right thing for the wrong reasons.
debacle 5y ago
Paul Wheaton is a grifter, petty tyrant, and mini Hubbard who has built a cult around himself. He bans anyone from the permaculture subreddit who disagrees with him, which is why there are multiple off-shoot subreddits, including one specifically dedicated to his malfeasance which broaches into criminality.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  This guy has control of the permaculture subreddit? That's awful. Permaculture is a great and important movement. Does anybody know why movements rooted in holism keep getting taken over by people like this? It seems like every movement that starts out by wanting to incorporate high-level perspectives ends up getting burdened with the crystal-spinners and magic-cancer-curers of the world.
  - debacle 5y ago
    Every system is corrupted by those willing to leverage the most from it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- olivierlacan 5y ago
  Found this interesting and surprisingly balanced point of view on the man from people who clearly denounce him and his behvior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP9GM-1YJCI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP9GM-1YJCI

mathgladiator 5y ago

I've experienced this, and I've learned to search for the grains of truth. At core, the people doing this are highly disagreeable, and so they form their own opinions and go deep. I think going deep into crazy is natural, and the hard question is trying to balance that out with a deeper truth. At core, I think there is a deeper value in being the control group outside of the modern world. So, can food cure cancer? I don't know, but it may be worth looking into. Amish, for instance, have 40% less cancer. Is it the food? the air? the bacteria? the hard work? No Idea! Myself, I'm getting firmly on the fasting train. I eat every other day, and I feel great.

inglor_cz 5y ago
AFAIK Amish people consume less alcohol and tobacco than the average American. Could this be a factor in their lower cancer rates? Also - who diagnoses Amish people for cancer? Can there be a higher "dark number" of undetected cancers among them than among the general population?
rhacker 5y ago
It may not be that it cures cancer, but that it stops causing it. Food that is sourced without chemicals, or pesticides.
Scoundreller 5y ago
While cancer is lower, their life expectancy is around the US average. US average lifespan isn’t something to write home about.
- reedjosh 5y ago
  Does that account for infant mortality? Life expectancy should really only be talked about in terms of expected lifespan of someone who's already made it to say 3 years old. Otherwise, we get a very distorted view of modern medicine's ability to stave off death. Modern medicine has really done well at reducing infant mortality though.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    I agree, but you also distort things by excluding infants, but if that group are included in a separate statistic it would seem ok.
relaxing 5y ago
The study of cancer among the Amish found lower incidence of only a subset of cancers, essentially the ones related to not drinking or smoking, sun exposure (wearing long clothes and big hats), and having few sexual partners. There’s no mystery.

amanaplanacanal 5y ago

A person could totally be an expert on soil and sustainable agriculture and know nothing useful about medicine. In fact, that is what I would expect. Listen to the experts on their subject of expertise, and take the rest with a huge grain of salt.

saalweachter 5y ago
The problem is deciding whether someone is actually an expect in a subject area where I'm not. People can say things that are patently absurd about one field while being an expert in another, but I also can't just be completely credulous in treating any assertion about any subject I do not understand as true. I don't really have much else to do but build out from a network of trust rooted in people who seem competent and clear-minded by whatever criteria I can judge.

samatman 5y ago

That's a reasonable response, but it's actually totally normal to have expertise in one domain and totally wacky ideas in another one. It's even possible to combine these things, although that's a dangerous game to play. Biodynamic agriculture is a great example of this, Rudolph Steiner's model of how agriculture (and scientific matters in general) is... heterodox... but biodynamic farms regularly produce good crops of quality food, and the practices cultivate healthy soil by any objective measure you would care for. I wouldn't go casually trying this with medicine, where practitioners are more likely to do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, rather than the right thing for the wrong reasons.

debacle 5y ago

Paul Wheaton is a grifter, petty tyrant, and mini Hubbard who has built a cult around himself. He bans anyone from the permaculture subreddit who disagrees with him, which is why there are multiple off-shoot subreddits, including one specifically dedicated to his malfeasance which broaches into criminality.

beaconstudios 5y ago
This guy has control of the permaculture subreddit? That's awful. Permaculture is a great and important movement. Does anybody know why movements rooted in holism keep getting taken over by people like this? It seems like every movement that starts out by wanting to incorporate high-level perspectives ends up getting burdened with the crystal-spinners and magic-cancer-curers of the world.
- debacle 5y ago
  Every system is corrupted by those willing to leverage the most from it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
olivierlacan 5y ago
Found this interesting and surprisingly balanced point of view on the man from people who clearly denounce him and his behvior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP9GM-1YJCI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP9GM-1YJCI