8 ms·

How does one launder money / evade taxes with high end art?

lathiat 5y ago
My naive understanding is it’s a way of transferring money in return for something supposedly valuable. That might really be payment for something else.
- herbst 5y ago
  Then why would they do it so visibly when they could use quiet assets? IMO that doesnt make sense
thebean11 5y ago
1. Buy for $x 2. Get appraised for $100x 3. Donate 4. Take $100x tax deduction
- vincentmarle 5y ago
  Doesn’t the tax deduction only apply for 30% of the donation though?
  - r00fus 5y ago
    100x * .30 = 3x value in deductions. You can scale the 100x accordingly to your needs.
- adventured 5y ago
  That doesn't work. That's the great myth of donation tax dodging that isn't actually true, yet is endlessly repeated. You ultimately - at best - only save a fraction of your donated value, you'd be better off just selling the asset instead of donating it for a fractional tax saving. If that actually worked the top 10% wouldn't be carrying such an outsized share of the nation's tax burden on its shoulders via our very progressive tax system, they'd all be busy dodging all of their taxes via donations. If you really wanted to avoid taxes, you wouldn't donate anything, you wouldn't sell anything. The single best way to avoid taxes in your lifetime, is to borrow against your assets and only repay the borrowing in death. Your cost will be interest (interest rates are ridiculously low today). You could go much of your lifetime without paying taxes, while enjoying the good life borrowing against eg your stock holdings. Warren Buffett has made this point numerous times, that if he wanted to avoid paying taxes during his lifetime while enjoying his immense wealth, he'd just use that approach. Buffett could have taken out a $1 billion loan 30 years ago, had fun with that cash, and paid zero taxes on it for decades (while also not selling his primary asset - Berkshire Hathaway stock - which has appreciated dramatically).
  - thebean11 5y ago
    A fraction of the donated value is still much bigger than the actual value you paid for the art. The important part is to get an appraisal far above the actual value.
    - fridif 5y ago
      How does one get an appraisal that the IRS will believe?
      - patrickthebold 5y ago
        The IRS is way understaffed. I imagine they aren't looking too hard.
        fridif 5y ago
        If you are reporting hundreds of k in donations I'm almost certain you are getting audited, even if it takes them a few years to begin it
  - uxp100 5y ago
    > you'd be better off just selling the asset instead of donating it for a fractional tax saving. The idea of this scheme (which may be exaggerated on the internet) is that you cannot sell the asset. This is a painting by the cousin of someone who went to the same barbershop as de Kooning. There is zero market. There are approximately zero buyers. There is some story to be constructed that plausibly justifies some "historical value." There is presumably some decorative value.
  - tracedddd 5y ago
    I keep seeing this discussed, but I have honestly had difficulty getting relatively large loans against assets. All they seemed to care about was income. Yes, Buffet definitely has a better relationship with the bank than I, but I wonder if this is really possible to copy by the average person.
ganoushoreilly 5y ago
1031 Exchanges are one method, buying overpriced items to bring illicit cash into legitimate ownership is another. There are a myriad of ways to make it beneficial. I think we all can agree though that the price is nuts. Then again The H.Biden paintings are listed for 75 - 500,000 so maybe I just have 0 clue about what super wealthy people want.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  >buying overpriced items to bring illicit cash into legitimate ownership is another No, Christie's (or some other big auction house) is never going to take your money that way. No one, actually. It's the same with real estate. "Just walk in with a million in $20 bills and pay the property with cash". That's not going to happen. Ever.
  - rodelle 5y ago
    I believe it's more like: here's 1.5 million dollars that you can use to explain to the IRS how you're paying for a new house. If you give me 2 million in illicit cash, I can use that elsewhere and the IRS doesn't care because I already have 100 million dollars in assets.
    - moralestapia 5y ago
      >IRS doesn't care because I already have 100 million dollars in assets Again, that won't happen, ever. The IRS is not going to just forget those 2 million, they don't care if it's "pocket change" for you or not. Also, you are implying that somebody with 100M+ in assets is going to compromise everything to launder 2 million from some other stranger ...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    Never ever? You’d think so, and yet it’s come to light Crown Casino in Melbourne was doing just that, knowingly maintaining relationships with known crime organisations, and was actively enabling money laundering.[1] I argue politics and big business is a front for bad behaviour, as evidenced by the endless stream of corruption news pouring out of the Australian federal government. I find it difficult to believe the the other G20 nations[2] are markedly better. 1. https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/five-bombshells-that-could-blow-away-crown-s-melbourne-casino-20210709-p58877.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/five-bombshells-th... 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G20 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G20
reader_mode 5y ago
Isn't it a scheme where you sell to yourself and then claim illegal money is money you earned from the sale ?
moralestapia 5y ago
This is the exact question ("how?") I always ask when someone parrots "tax evasion" and the answers I get back never make any sense, at all. And it's always from a bunch of armchair "tax dodgers" that, judging from the fantasies they share, have never seen an IRS form in their lives.
- ganoushoreilly 5y ago
  Your assumption is it's only US tax evasion. It's also about getting money out of other countries and evading their taxes, creating values of wealth store. Much like the real estate industry in key markets of the US, foreign investors don't care about paying more if it means they can safely get their cash out of host countries.

My naive understanding is it’s a way of transferring money in return for something supposedly valuable. That might really be payment for something else.

herbst 5y ago
Then why would they do it so visibly when they could use quiet assets? IMO that doesnt make sense

thebean11 5y ago

1. Buy for $x 2. Get appraised for $100x 3. Donate 4. Take $100x tax deduction

vincentmarle 5y ago
Doesn’t the tax deduction only apply for 30% of the donation though?
- r00fus 5y ago
  100x * .30 = 3x value in deductions. You can scale the 100x accordingly to your needs.
adventured 5y ago
That doesn't work. That's the great myth of donation tax dodging that isn't actually true, yet is endlessly repeated. You ultimately - at best - only save a fraction of your donated value, you'd be better off just selling the asset instead of donating it for a fractional tax saving. If that actually worked the top 10% wouldn't be carrying such an outsized share of the nation's tax burden on its shoulders via our very progressive tax system, they'd all be busy dodging all of their taxes via donations. If you really wanted to avoid taxes, you wouldn't donate anything, you wouldn't sell anything. The single best way to avoid taxes in your lifetime, is to borrow against your assets and only repay the borrowing in death. Your cost will be interest (interest rates are ridiculously low today). You could go much of your lifetime without paying taxes, while enjoying the good life borrowing against eg your stock holdings. Warren Buffett has made this point numerous times, that if he wanted to avoid paying taxes during his lifetime while enjoying his immense wealth, he'd just use that approach. Buffett could have taken out a $1 billion loan 30 years ago, had fun with that cash, and paid zero taxes on it for decades (while also not selling his primary asset - Berkshire Hathaway stock - which has appreciated dramatically).
- thebean11 5y ago
  A fraction of the donated value is still much bigger than the actual value you paid for the art. The important part is to get an appraisal far above the actual value.
  - fridif 5y ago
    How does one get an appraisal that the IRS will believe?
    - patrickthebold 5y ago
      The IRS is way understaffed. I imagine they aren't looking too hard.
      - fridif 5y ago
        If you are reporting hundreds of k in donations I'm almost certain you are getting audited, even if it takes them a few years to begin it
- uxp100 5y ago
  > you'd be better off just selling the asset instead of donating it for a fractional tax saving. The idea of this scheme (which may be exaggerated on the internet) is that you cannot sell the asset. This is a painting by the cousin of someone who went to the same barbershop as de Kooning. There is zero market. There are approximately zero buyers. There is some story to be constructed that plausibly justifies some "historical value." There is presumably some decorative value.
- tracedddd 5y ago
  I keep seeing this discussed, but I have honestly had difficulty getting relatively large loans against assets. All they seemed to care about was income. Yes, Buffet definitely has a better relationship with the bank than I, but I wonder if this is really possible to copy by the average person.

ganoushoreilly 5y ago

1031 Exchanges are one method, buying overpriced items to bring illicit cash into legitimate ownership is another. There are a myriad of ways to make it beneficial. I think we all can agree though that the price is nuts. Then again The H.Biden paintings are listed for 75 - 500,000 so maybe I just have 0 clue about what super wealthy people want.

moralestapia 5y ago
>buying overpriced items to bring illicit cash into legitimate ownership is another No, Christie's (or some other big auction house) is never going to take your money that way. No one, actually. It's the same with real estate. "Just walk in with a million in $20 bills and pay the property with cash". That's not going to happen. Ever.
- rodelle 5y ago
  I believe it's more like: here's 1.5 million dollars that you can use to explain to the IRS how you're paying for a new house. If you give me 2 million in illicit cash, I can use that elsewhere and the IRS doesn't care because I already have 100 million dollars in assets.
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    >IRS doesn't care because I already have 100 million dollars in assets Again, that won't happen, ever. The IRS is not going to just forget those 2 million, they don't care if it's "pocket change" for you or not. Also, you are implying that somebody with 100M+ in assets is going to compromise everything to launder 2 million from some other stranger ...
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  Never ever? You’d think so, and yet it’s come to light Crown Casino in Melbourne was doing just that, knowingly maintaining relationships with known crime organisations, and was actively enabling money laundering.[1] I argue politics and big business is a front for bad behaviour, as evidenced by the endless stream of corruption news pouring out of the Australian federal government. I find it difficult to believe the the other G20 nations[2] are markedly better. 1. https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/five-bombshells-that-could-blow-away-crown-s-melbourne-casino-20210709-p58877.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/five-bombshells-th... 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G20 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G20

reader_mode 5y ago

Isn't it a scheme where you sell to yourself and then claim illegal money is money you earned from the sale ?

moralestapia 5y ago

This is the exact question ("how?") I always ask when someone parrots "tax evasion" and the answers I get back never make any sense, at all. And it's always from a bunch of armchair "tax dodgers" that, judging from the fantasies they share, have never seen an IRS form in their lives.

ganoushoreilly 5y ago
Your assumption is it's only US tax evasion. It's also about getting money out of other countries and evading their taxes, creating values of wealth store. Much like the real estate industry in key markets of the US, foreign investors don't care about paying more if it means they can safely get their cash out of host countries.