7 ms·

fortunately it doesn’t take much battery to shift that

by dv_dt 5y ago

ekianjo 5y ago
Powering a whole house at night takes a lot of batteries. There's not enough battery production on Earth to even accommodate that.
- pfdietz 5y ago
  I don't understand why people make this argument. I mean, the number of factories is not some fixed constant of nature. If demand for a product is high enough, more factories get built.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Depends how much of your loads you can shift to daytime. If your dishwasher/fridge/freezer/heater/cooler/whatever already ran/pre-cooled/pre-heated during the day, you won't need to run much at night. I have an off-grid family member running their lighting+IT loads straight off DC just so the inverter can sleep at night. Its efficiency is garbage with small loads.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  Luckily there are cheaper solutions for energy storage at grid scale thru CSP and molten salt storage.
  - VBprogrammer 5y ago
    I really want CSP to succeed for no other reason than I find it much more exciting from a childish mechanically fascinating point of view. However, all indications at the moment are that solar + lithium storage is winning this battle. We are seeing larger farms with more installed storage every year. Perhaps CSP might flourish in certain niches, particularly those where waste heat and / or industrial high temperature processes are required in addition to electricity production.
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      > We are seeing larger farms with more installed storage every year. Same is happening with CSP, just way less so in the US. CSP with MS storage is already cheaper on a LCOE basis than nuclear, esp factoring storage [0]. Lots of PV analysis never includes storage costs (and for obvious reasons). I think Li tech is probably better served for individual consumer applications (because of all the constraints) than at the grid level. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589828
      - nl 5y ago
        Just about everything is cheaper than nuclear these days!
        cinquemb 5y ago
        PV with Li storage isnt!
        nl 5y ago
        Li storage is currently only really used for grid stability style installations at the gird-scale level (ie, as an alternative to gas-peaker plants). Li is convenient for residential installations, but it's possible other batteries are better at industrial and grid scale. Lazard's latest (2020) levelized energy cost comparison[1] shows the unsubsidised cost comparing like this: Nuclear: $129-$198 MWh (1st chart) Solar Wholesale PV + Storage: $188-$329 MWh. This excludes the (huge) further price reductions in PV noted in the linked article. The wholesale solar does include flow batteries as well as Li storage. The whole storage report[2] is worth reading[2]. [1] https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-and-levelized-cost-of-storage-2020/ https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-of-storage-version-60-vf2.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-o...
        hulitu 5y ago
  - nl 5y ago
    CSP (concentrated solar power) isn't on the same price reduction curve as photovoltaic solar though. But at grid scale there are lots of options for storage. Pump solar is the obvious option.
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      > CSP (concentrated solar power) isn't on the same price reduction curve as photovoltaic solar though. Esp if one ignores storage costs. > But at grid scale there are lots of options for storage. Agreed. > Pump solar is the obvious option. Disagree for CSP, but for hydro electric I'd agree.
      - Retric 5y ago
        Battery storage is on a steeper price reduction curve than CSP. So, Batteries + PV is on a steeper cost reduction curve than CSP. The cost of tracking PV + batteries is already cheaper than CSP when fitted to the current demand curve. What’s kept CSP limping along is you can use natural gas to supplement CSP while calling the project green. But from a pure cost basis it’s extremely expensive.
        cinquemb 5y ago
        > The cost of tracking PV + batteries is already cheaper than CSP when fitted to the current demand curve. Really? Any cost stats for that, I'd love to see that. From Lazard's 2018 [1] and 2020 [2] reports, PV+storage (and only 1-4 hours of storage) is still more expensive for "In-front-of the meter" on the low end compared to CSP for storage on LCOE basis, and 2.5x-4.4x more expensive on the low end, for "Behind-the-meter" applications. > What’s kept CSP limping along is you can use natural gas to supplement CSP while calling the project green. And we can also cast light on the manufacturing process behind panels and how the materials are gathered for both panels and batteries… either way improvements are being made all around. [1] https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-120-vfinal.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-o... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-of-storage-version-60-vf2.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-o...
- RobertoG 5y ago
  We are probably using the wrong kind of battery for grid storage. There are some promising techs out there, like Liquid Metal Battery: https://ambri.com/ https://ambri.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiRrvxjrJ1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiRrvxjrJ1U
- goodcanadian 5y ago
  Powering a whole house at night takes a lot of batteries. There's not enough battery production on Earth to even accommodate that. My car has enough capacity that it could easily do it . . .
  - drewg123 5y ago
    So does mine, but it is a Tesla, so I cannot use it. I wish we could get Tesla to allow their cars to be used for energy storage, like the new Ford F150. I'm concerned they are worried about competing with their Powerwall business.
- dv_dt 5y ago
  Most houses use very little power at night.

fortunately it doesn’t take much battery to shift that

by dv_dt 5y ago

fortunately it doesn’t take much battery to shift that

Powering a whole house at night takes a lot of batteries. There's not enough battery production on Earth to even accommodate that.

pfdietz 5y ago
I don't understand why people make this argument. I mean, the number of factories is not some fixed constant of nature. If demand for a product is high enough, more factories get built.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Scoundreller 5y ago
Depends how much of your loads you can shift to daytime. If your dishwasher/fridge/freezer/heater/cooler/whatever already ran/pre-cooled/pre-heated during the day, you won't need to run much at night. I have an off-grid family member running their lighting+IT loads straight off DC just so the inverter can sleep at night. Its efficiency is garbage with small loads.
cinquemb 5y ago
Luckily there are cheaper solutions for energy storage at grid scale thru CSP and molten salt storage.
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  I really want CSP to succeed for no other reason than I find it much more exciting from a childish mechanically fascinating point of view. However, all indications at the moment are that solar + lithium storage is winning this battle. We are seeing larger farms with more installed storage every year. Perhaps CSP might flourish in certain niches, particularly those where waste heat and / or industrial high temperature processes are required in addition to electricity production.
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    > We are seeing larger farms with more installed storage every year. Same is happening with CSP, just way less so in the US. CSP with MS storage is already cheaper on a LCOE basis than nuclear, esp factoring storage [0]. Lots of PV analysis never includes storage costs (and for obvious reasons). I think Li tech is probably better served for individual consumer applications (because of all the constraints) than at the grid level. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589828
    - nl 5y ago
      Just about everything is cheaper than nuclear these days!
      - cinquemb 5y ago
        PV with Li storage isnt!
        nl 5y ago
        Li storage is currently only really used for grid stability style installations at the gird-scale level (ie, as an alternative to gas-peaker plants). Li is convenient for residential installations, but it's possible other batteries are better at industrial and grid scale. Lazard's latest (2020) levelized energy cost comparison[1] shows the unsubsidised cost comparing like this: Nuclear: $129-$198 MWh (1st chart) Solar Wholesale PV + Storage: $188-$329 MWh. This excludes the (huge) further price reductions in PV noted in the linked article. The wholesale solar does include flow batteries as well as Li storage. The whole storage report[2] is worth reading[2]. [1] https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-and-levelized-cost-of-storage-2020/ https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-of-storage-version-60-vf2.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-o...
        hulitu 5y ago
- nl 5y ago
  CSP (concentrated solar power) isn't on the same price reduction curve as photovoltaic solar though. But at grid scale there are lots of options for storage. Pump solar is the obvious option.
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    > CSP (concentrated solar power) isn't on the same price reduction curve as photovoltaic solar though. Esp if one ignores storage costs. > But at grid scale there are lots of options for storage. Agreed. > Pump solar is the obvious option. Disagree for CSP, but for hydro electric I'd agree.
    - Retric 5y ago
      Battery storage is on a steeper price reduction curve than CSP. So, Batteries + PV is on a steeper cost reduction curve than CSP. The cost of tracking PV + batteries is already cheaper than CSP when fitted to the current demand curve. What’s kept CSP limping along is you can use natural gas to supplement CSP while calling the project green. But from a pure cost basis it’s extremely expensive.
      - cinquemb 5y ago
        > The cost of tracking PV + batteries is already cheaper than CSP when fitted to the current demand curve. Really? Any cost stats for that, I'd love to see that. From Lazard's 2018 [1] and 2020 [2] reports, PV+storage (and only 1-4 hours of storage) is still more expensive for "In-front-of the meter" on the low end compared to CSP for storage on LCOE basis, and 2.5x-4.4x more expensive on the low end, for "Behind-the-meter" applications. > What’s kept CSP limping along is you can use natural gas to supplement CSP while calling the project green. And we can also cast light on the manufacturing process behind panels and how the materials are gathered for both panels and batteries… either way improvements are being made all around. [1] https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-120-vfinal.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-o... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-of-storage-version-60-vf2.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-o...
RobertoG 5y ago
We are probably using the wrong kind of battery for grid storage. There are some promising techs out there, like Liquid Metal Battery: https://ambri.com/ https://ambri.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiRrvxjrJ1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiRrvxjrJ1U
goodcanadian 5y ago
Powering a whole house at night takes a lot of batteries. There's not enough battery production on Earth to even accommodate that. My car has enough capacity that it could easily do it . . .
- drewg123 5y ago
  So does mine, but it is a Tesla, so I cannot use it. I wish we could get Tesla to allow their cars to be used for energy storage, like the new Ford F150. I'm concerned they are worried about competing with their Powerwall business.
dv_dt 5y ago
Most houses use very little power at night.