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There’s no reason to be cynical. The people who worked on and supported renewables before they were cheap and the environmentalists who convinced them to do so

There’s no reason to be cynical. The people who worked on and supported renewables before they were cheap and the environmentalists who convinced them to do so in the face of intense opposition from entrenched fossil-fueled opposition are the ones who made the economic realities of coal a foregone conclusion at this point. This success is something to be celebrated.

idiotsecant 5y ago
The economic realities of coal have nothing to do with renewables. They have to do with cheap natural gas. That cheap natural gas is a byproduct of fracking the bakkan field. A natural gas plant can be run with an operator and a tech or two for maintainance. A coal plant takes a huge team of people to keep running, not to mention the capex required to keep emissions in range. Coal is expensive because other fossil solutions are cheaper. Renewables without storage are in no way a threat to coal alone - they don't fulfill the same function.
- socialdemocrat 5y ago
  You cannot ignore that it has been a combination. It his had in no way happened due to gas alone.
- imtringued 5y ago
  >The economic realities of coal have nothing to do with renewables. Coal isn't load following. It overproduces and doesn't get paid during that time because renewables get feed in priority.
notatoad 5y ago
Yeah, the fact that coal is becoming economically unviable is a huge cause for hope, imo. It means that we might have a chance to claw our way out of this climate crisis through measures that fit within our current economic systems, rather than the more drastic "burn it all down" solutions that some groups are pushing (and which are much less likely to actually happen)
jcampbell1 5y ago
To be a bit more cynical, it was the frackers and gas pipeline builders who pushed the technology against environmental concerns which doomed coal economics more than renewables. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_United_States#/media/File%3AUSA_electricity_production.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_Un... The US pioneered fracking, and Europe built pipelines from Russia. Renewables are part of the story, but you give way too much credit to environmentalists. The next frontier is energy storage, and the engineers and capitalists don’t pay much attention to the environmentalists, much like the frackers before them.
- afarrell 5y ago
  > and the engineers and capitalists don’t pay much attention to the environmentalists, much like the frackers before them. Because many environmentalists are so unwilling to accept a massively imperfect solution that getting their buy-in would be as futile as trying to build affordable housing in San Francisco.

idiotsecant 5y ago

The economic realities of coal have nothing to do with renewables. They have to do with cheap natural gas. That cheap natural gas is a byproduct of fracking the bakkan field. A natural gas plant can be run with an operator and a tech or two for maintainance. A coal plant takes a huge team of people to keep running, not to mention the capex required to keep emissions in range. Coal is expensive because other fossil solutions are cheaper. Renewables without storage are in no way a threat to coal alone - they don't fulfill the same function.

socialdemocrat 5y ago
You cannot ignore that it has been a combination. It his had in no way happened due to gas alone.
imtringued 5y ago
>The economic realities of coal have nothing to do with renewables. Coal isn't load following. It overproduces and doesn't get paid during that time because renewables get feed in priority.

notatoad 5y ago

Yeah, the fact that coal is becoming economically unviable is a huge cause for hope, imo. It means that we might have a chance to claw our way out of this climate crisis through measures that fit within our current economic systems, rather than the more drastic "burn it all down" solutions that some groups are pushing (and which are much less likely to actually happen)

jcampbell1 5y ago

To be a bit more cynical, it was the frackers and gas pipeline builders who pushed the technology against environmental concerns which doomed coal economics more than renewables. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_United_States#/media/File%3AUSA_electricity_production.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_Un... The US pioneered fracking, and Europe built pipelines from Russia. Renewables are part of the story, but you give way too much credit to environmentalists. The next frontier is energy storage, and the engineers and capitalists don’t pay much attention to the environmentalists, much like the frackers before them.

afarrell 5y ago
> and the engineers and capitalists don’t pay much attention to the environmentalists, much like the frackers before them. Because many environmentalists are so unwilling to accept a massively imperfect solution that getting their buy-in would be as futile as trying to build affordable housing in San Francisco.