3 ms·

Newsflash: it’s the building trades unions. We have the tech to build nice buildings much more efficiently but we don’t use it due to political advocacy from th

Newsflash: it’s the building trades unions. We have the tech to build nice buildings much more efficiently but we don’t use it due to political advocacy from the trades unions. We have extremely inefficient regulations around building codes, largely due to lobbying from the trades unions. In CA right now, the trades are lobbying for regulations to ban cross laminated timber structures, which are a step function cost reduction change for 5-12 story buildings. The reason modular construction hasn’t taken off is largely due to political lobbying from the trades unions. They even lobby against zoning code changes that would allow people to build larger buildings with the same tech we currently have. It’s absolutely insane.

m00x 5y ago
Do you have data to cover this statement, or is it simply conjecture?
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  I don’t have an academic study, put I do policy advocacy in this space as a hobby, specifically around supportive housing for the homeless and this is my experience in California and the general understanding of the state of things by the politicians and professionals in the space.
  - edoceo 5y ago
    That's a lot of words for "it's conjecture"
    - 0xB31B1B 5y ago
      It’s not conjecture that the trades lobby against well understood policy changes (modlular housing, cross laminated timber construction) that increase productivity, it’s just not something written about in newspapers or academic studies because it is extremely niche and there is basically no audience for the content. There’s maybe 250 people in the state of California that understand the state of things here; they’re lobbyists for developers, lobbyists for trades unions, lobbyists for affordable housing non profits, and a few legislative aides for people on the relevant committees. They mostly know each other and don’t need a newspaper to report on the goings on.
burntoutfire 5y ago
Looks like finally, instead of just rioting, Luddites got smart and got themselves some political representation.
joe_the_user 5y ago
The article gives a good actual explanation: Instead, volatility in demand for construction has trained builders to curb investment. “The industry has learned through bitter experience to prepare for the next recession,” says Luc Luyten of Bain & Company, a consultancy. Capital-heavy approaches to construction bring high fixed costs that are difficult to cut in downturns. Workers, in contrast, can be fired. One of the factors of construction is "it costs what it costs". Builders are willing and able to pass costs on to consumers and so don't have an incentive for cost savings.
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  This doesn’t explain everything though. We have a lot of consumers who want to build modular housing in CA and they are blocked by the trades. The trades lobby against both the construction of modular housing factories and specific proposed modular buildings. They don’t want more efficiency, they want more man-hours per project.
  - joe_the_user 5y ago
    ... and they are blocked by the trades. It's pretty ridiculous that you've the whole thread whining about "the trades". A variety of vested interests keep building costs high, with trade unions well down the list. Developers, large, monopoly builders and homeowners' association each as a group have more money than any unions and through a system that bring huge profits by high priced building and land appreciation, they have a vested interest in the high cost of building. Consider that when it's time sell schemes that raise the cost of building, the best "face" can trade union "protecting livelihoods" but that doesn't that's where the real power or money lies. On a practical note - mobile home parks in my area are blocked by county and city government they serve home-values, out here in the sticks, unions really don't have but we've had no new parks for twenty or thirty years. But oppositely, it's easy to put mobile unit on the high price land you occupy yourself. Yeah, it's land value.
    - 0xB31B1B 5y ago
      I'm not talking about making construction costs high, I am talking about lobbying against known technologies/techniques/code changes that can improve the efficiency of construction, it is a subtle distinction. Yes, there are many more players than "the trades" in california that have a vested interest in keeping construction costs high. None of those other interests shows up to lobby against modular housing or cross laminated timber regulations. Here is one example where this lobbying was done in the open. There are many many more that don't hit the papers because the topics are pretty narrow/boring but highly impactful. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-trade-unions-at-odds-over-modular-15755264.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-tr...
wussboy 5y ago
Is there any effective remedy to this? Would be interested to hear your opinion (which sounds like it’s as lot closer to the action than mine is).
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  It’s extremely tough in California. The building trades are one of the most influential interest groups in crafting policy in the state legislature. The leader of the CA trades union who has lead policy lobbying for the past ~10 years recently retired ( https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article252484978.html https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-aler...) and hopes are that this will help break a log jam of policy changes here.
Robotbeat 5y ago
I don't really think this comment should be down-voted. The claims are fairly well-founded: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-trade-unions-at-odds-over-modular-15755264.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-tr... "San Francisco, trade unions at odds over modular construction - even for homeless projects"

m00x 5y ago

Do you have data to cover this statement, or is it simply conjecture?

0xB31B1B 5y ago
I don’t have an academic study, put I do policy advocacy in this space as a hobby, specifically around supportive housing for the homeless and this is my experience in California and the general understanding of the state of things by the politicians and professionals in the space.
- edoceo 5y ago
  That's a lot of words for "it's conjecture"
  - 0xB31B1B 5y ago
    It’s not conjecture that the trades lobby against well understood policy changes (modlular housing, cross laminated timber construction) that increase productivity, it’s just not something written about in newspapers or academic studies because it is extremely niche and there is basically no audience for the content. There’s maybe 250 people in the state of California that understand the state of things here; they’re lobbyists for developers, lobbyists for trades unions, lobbyists for affordable housing non profits, and a few legislative aides for people on the relevant committees. They mostly know each other and don’t need a newspaper to report on the goings on.

burntoutfire 5y ago

Looks like finally, instead of just rioting, Luddites got smart and got themselves some political representation.

joe_the_user 5y ago

The article gives a good actual explanation: Instead, volatility in demand for construction has trained builders to curb investment. “The industry has learned through bitter experience to prepare for the next recession,” says Luc Luyten of Bain & Company, a consultancy. Capital-heavy approaches to construction bring high fixed costs that are difficult to cut in downturns. Workers, in contrast, can be fired. One of the factors of construction is "it costs what it costs". Builders are willing and able to pass costs on to consumers and so don't have an incentive for cost savings.

0xB31B1B 5y ago
This doesn’t explain everything though. We have a lot of consumers who want to build modular housing in CA and they are blocked by the trades. The trades lobby against both the construction of modular housing factories and specific proposed modular buildings. They don’t want more efficiency, they want more man-hours per project.
- joe_the_user 5y ago
  ... and they are blocked by the trades. It's pretty ridiculous that you've the whole thread whining about "the trades". A variety of vested interests keep building costs high, with trade unions well down the list. Developers, large, monopoly builders and homeowners' association each as a group have more money than any unions and through a system that bring huge profits by high priced building and land appreciation, they have a vested interest in the high cost of building. Consider that when it's time sell schemes that raise the cost of building, the best "face" can trade union "protecting livelihoods" but that doesn't that's where the real power or money lies. On a practical note - mobile home parks in my area are blocked by county and city government they serve home-values, out here in the sticks, unions really don't have but we've had no new parks for twenty or thirty years. But oppositely, it's easy to put mobile unit on the high price land you occupy yourself. Yeah, it's land value.
  - 0xB31B1B 5y ago
    I'm not talking about making construction costs high, I am talking about lobbying against known technologies/techniques/code changes that can improve the efficiency of construction, it is a subtle distinction. Yes, there are many more players than "the trades" in california that have a vested interest in keeping construction costs high. None of those other interests shows up to lobby against modular housing or cross laminated timber regulations. Here is one example where this lobbying was done in the open. There are many many more that don't hit the papers because the topics are pretty narrow/boring but highly impactful. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-trade-unions-at-odds-over-modular-15755264.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-tr...

wussboy 5y ago

Is there any effective remedy to this? Would be interested to hear your opinion (which sounds like it’s as lot closer to the action than mine is).

0xB31B1B 5y ago
It’s extremely tough in California. The building trades are one of the most influential interest groups in crafting policy in the state legislature. The leader of the CA trades union who has lead policy lobbying for the past ~10 years recently retired ( https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article252484978.html https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-aler...) and hopes are that this will help break a log jam of policy changes here.

Robotbeat 5y ago

I don't really think this comment should be down-voted. The claims are fairly well-founded: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-trade-unions-at-odds-over-modular-15755264.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-tr... "San Francisco, trade unions at odds over modular construction - even for homeless projects"