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Spanish Sketches
- logronoide 5y agoI can’t understand how the Anglo culture still glorifies a butchery like the Spanish Civil War. There was no revolution; it was only hate and violence between neighbors in the name of extreme political ideas.
- n3storm 5y agoThis discourse supporting and whitewashing fascism should not be supported. There was a democratic government running composed by differente parties, and military and fascists prepared and achieved a coup d'etat. Government had to take a decission as mandated by their voters in democratic election so a war started. Just saying both parts where opposite extremes is a plain lie like saying police at the congress detaining Trump/Qanon fans at this winter riot was just a crash between two "extreme political ideas".
- logronoide 5y agoI’m not justifying the coup. Once the war started both political extremes believed they had the mission to prevail whatever it took. That’s why it became a Civil War and the end of the Republican Spanish State as the way to keep law and order. That’s when the butchery began. The Civil War atrocities came when the Republican Spanish State collapsed and a plethora of “experiments” started to pop up around the country driven by local communist, socialist and specially anarchist leaders trying to do the revolution on their own. The atrocities from the National (rebel) faction started from day one of the coup and they were driven by a centralized and unified alternative “national state” that prevailed because it was better applying law and order, even having very low support from the Spaniards. The Anglo journalists and writers saw how some of these “experiments” worked. It’s not strange to see how they enthusiastically supported it at the beginning and how they changed their mind of even became critic with socialist mindset.
- mejutoco 5y ago> I’m not justifying the coup Painting both sides as equal, when one was democratically elected, and the other a military coup is extremely inaccurate, to the point where it suggests some strong biases. My guess is this is why it comes accross as you justifying the coup. Edit: quote
- ankalagon 5y agoWell, in this case, it was clear that the choice was between Communism and military totalitarist regime/falangism/Fascism: There was a failed coup by the PSOE and left-leaning political groups in 1934: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1934 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1934 They failed and the next two years were a sequence of minor scale violent events that ended in a war in 1936. Of course, the coup by the military forces is not justified, but the caotic situation made them choose what they thought was the "lesser of two evils".
- Zardoz84 5y agoSpaniard here. There was reactionary right wing military coup d'etat that try to take control of the country, and failed. So, we had endured a bloody civil war. On the one side, the nationalists, there was mix of right wing factions... Carlists, monarchic, right wing republicans, falangists (Spanish version of nazis). On the other side, there was a mix of force loyal to the republic and far left wing factions... socialists, communist and anarchists. Both sides, did some awful and unmoral things, but the nationalists did a lot more awful things. Like bombing fleeing refugees. Also, the nationalists ended consolidating around the falangists and pro-nazis ideologies, and getting military help from fascists Italy and Nazis. When we ended the civil war, we had to endure a fascist regime to the end of 70's. And we endure yet some sequels of this. So, please, don't reduce the civil war as "hate and violence between neighbors in the name of extreme political ideas". It's was an bloody military uprising against the legit government that the people elected, that ended with fascists on power.
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- logronoide 5y agoThe simple idea of “the political faction I don’t like did more unmoral things” completely disqualifies your argument. In the case of Barcelona and Levante the lack of a strong Spanish State during the war and the prevalence of anarchists had as a result a lot of “experiments” around governance. These “experiments” lasted from a few months to years, and ranged from forbidding private property to killing the land owners and businessmen. It was not the land of freedom and peace described by some Anglo journalist and writers. It was a hell on earth because it was a Civil War.
- ankalagon 5y agoI wouldn't be so fast in claiming that the "Nationalist" faction was worse: - Bombing of Cabra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Cabra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Cabra - Sinking of SS Castillo de Olite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Castillo_de_Olite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Castillo_de_Olite - Paracuellos Massacress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracuellos_massacres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracuellos_massacres Edit: However, fighting because of what faction was worse in a conflict that ended more than 80 years ago is nonsense. This comment was made only to remind all that both factions made war crimes. Franco supporters' oppression aginst the losers side ("Republicans" and Communists) was worse after the war, from what I know.
- enriquto 5y ago> it was only hate and violence between neighbors You mean, that the German an Italian neighbors helped support a failed fascist coup in neighboring Spain while the rest of the world watched? At least some brave men like Orwell had the presence of mind to be on the right side. If this is not what you mind by "neighbors", I find your interpretation of the events extremely offensive. Like saying that jews and nazis were "neighbors" that sadly hated each other.
- logronoide 5y agoSPANIARDS. I mean Spaniards killing each other. I don’t care who supported what. It was brothers killing brothers. And a kind reminder of how terribly wrong you are about bravery at war: it does not distinguish armies or colors, it’s an individual attribute of the soldier. It’s never an attribute of the army or a faction. Talk to any professional military if you have any doubt.
- enriquto 5y ago> I mean Spaniards killing each other. This is not really what happened. My city was bombed continuously during three years by the Italian navy and air force. No "spaniards" bombed my city. My grandmother was 10 and she was wounded and half her schoolmates killed by an Italian bomb. Through her life she had a huge scar on half her body and many pieces of shrapnel deep inside her. She considered all humans her brothers, as well, not only the ones that had the same passport as her. Yes, including the italian guy who killed her friends.
- ankalagon 5y agoMy grandmother was almost raped and killed by Italian comunist/partisans in the Spanish Civil war. Both sides reached out for allies and got resources, men and machineary from them. National military front got in bed with Nacional-Socialsm and Fascism, and Republican with URSS.
- ankalagon 5y agoThere was a failed coup by the PSOE and left-leaning political groups in 1934: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1934 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1934 The Second Spanish Republic was a failed try to make a modern country whithoug having some kind of agreement between different political parties. All political parties were extremely polarized, the first coup failed (1934), and the second one (1936) succeeded. The civil war started 40 years of iron-fist totalitarian right-leaning regime (allied to USA). Fortunately it's been 50 years since that ended, although some politicians (soem in PSOE and almost all in Podemos) like to bring the topic up again, and again, and again... Only for divisive reasons and electoral motives.
- roenxi 5y agoPretty scary thing here for me is that basically all the lessons from 1910 to 1950 are being forgotten. No political faction is ever really extinguished - the same ideas gain or lose power over time. There is always ongoing balancing between liberty and authority, the power of the individual vs. power of the army vs. power of the community. But based on the generally forward motion of time, there aren't going to be many enough people floating around who can sensibly identify which brands of ideology are the dangerous ones. As Orwell quite eloquently identified - there are some ideas hiding in socialism that are legitimately dangerous if they become ascendant. They were so thoroughly crushed through the latter part of the 20th century I'm not sure the body politic can recognise them any more. The acquiescence of basically everyone to the building digital security state is also alarming.
- enriquto 5y ago> Pretty scary thing here for me is that basically all the lessons from 1910 to 1950 are being forgotten. This becomes even more scary when you realize that the 1910-1950 happened because people had forgotten all the lessons of the 1800. Every generation feels that they are above repeating the errors of the past. Yet every generation does.
- wombatmobile 5y agoWhat lessons are you saying have been forgotten? The history of the world between 1800 and 1950 is so vast that unless you articulate what lessons you have in mind, it's not possible to follow your conversation. Nevertheless, it is possible to reply to one aspect of your commentary, which is your use of the term "scary", or "more scary". Would you say electricity is scary? Exposure to only 110 volts from the wall can kill even the bravest, strongest human. But most people, and virtually all electricians, are not "scared" of mains electricity, because they have learned a few basics about how it works, and what precautions can be taken. Likewise with automobiles. A collision at 60mph can kill the bravest, strongest human. And yet, the freedom to drive at that speed and higher across the world's highways is responsible for vast amounts of goodness and communities. Perhaps we can take the political issues you are concerned about and find some similar insights, or ways of thinking about them that take us to a level higher than just "scary". But first, can you say what these issues are?
- elnatro 5y agoThe Spanish Civil war is a contentious topic en Spain today as the agreements reached by the politicians in the Democratic Transition has been called invalid by the left- leaning parties. Instead of fighting for better conditions of workers and citizens in general, left-leaning parties have been worried about pushing propaganda. Take in account that Franco died more than 45 years ago, and most of the governments since them (and the current one) have been left-leaning (PSOE mostly). And now, in Spain, the COVID-19 crisis has shown the inefficiency of the government, people are paying more than ever for electricity consumption (in a heat wave), the unemployment is the highest in the last years, and the price of buying or renting a home is high as ever. Thus, the government wants to charge us for the use of highways (already paid by taxes), and reduce the pay for the retirees. Ideological propaganda (left-leaning mostly) is very much alive in Spain.
- ghostDancer 5y agoStill there are hundreds of corpses buried in unknown places all over Spain and right wing parties don't want them unearthed, identified and given to the families, also continuous homages to the dictator from the right wing parties claiming that dictatorship was a time of order and peace.
- Ikatza 5y ago> right wing parties don't want them unearthed, identified and given to the families Source for this?
- pvaldes 5y agoVoting against it repeatedly in congress and senate counts as a source?
- elnatro 5y agoWell, I’m focusing in actual important things, like the continuous decrease of purchasing power of Spaniards. The war was more than 80 years ago, the Franco regime ended 46 years ago, and there was an amnesty/treaty with all political parties to work for the country forward. Now, about the monuments/homages: There are also monuments for the Che Guevara, La pasionaria, Carrillo (remember Paracuellos war crimes), etc. would these monuments be banned also? Largo Caballero made some controversial statements another opting for Revolution instead of democracy: > “La clase obrera debe adueñarse del poder político, convencida de que la democracia es incompatible con el socialismo, y como el que tiene el poder no ha de entregarlo voluntariamente, por eso hay que ir a la Revolución“ Should we ban all parties that have him as an important figure? No, Franco regime symbols have already been removed, his tomb removed, and the democracy has rooted in Spain for almost half a century, why don’t left-leaning parties solve actual people problems?
- skneko 5y agoI am honestly struggling to understand why this publication is even being allowed in a forum about programming, computers, technology and such. This is just old politics of a very specific country.
- pvaldes 5y agoOf a specific region from a very specific country in fact. Is postwar propaganda.
- pvaldes 5y agoI'm not sure what are they trying to sell exactly but I'm sure that this product is long past its expiration date.