5 ms·

One may wonder what exactly is the point in a human watching this auto-playing game system, and whether they'd be better off watching a movie... But another way

by nzmsv 5y ago

One may wonder what exactly is the point in a human watching this auto-playing game system, and whether they'd be better off watching a movie... But another way to look at it is as a preview of the future. Just picture this: a world of machines battling it out for supremacy, and somewhere off to the side there is an almost forgotten human brain. It seems to serve no discernible purpose, and yet it is actually the reason all the machines exist. What they are actually fighting to optimize, unbeknownst to them, is the dopamine release into a primate brain. Bonus points if the brain itself is a simulation :)

smolder 5y ago
Cheats are about two things: money or prestige. People want to get back at the players who so rudely beat them normally, and get high competitive rankings that make them look better than other players in that games community. Or, they use the cheats to create high ranking game accounts to sell to players who want to look good, or they simply cheat to win prize money. It should go without saying that this kind of activity destroys the interest in games affected by it. People don't like playing against superhuman enemies and having their progress impeded by it. It doesn't make sense that it would be enjoyable to play except that you can enjoy making money or making other people feel bad.
- nzmsv 5y ago
  That's exactly what I meant by my "preview of the future" comment. Imagine the same scenario, but in a higher-stakes environment than playing a game. Let's imagine there is a "leetcode aug" that lets one instantly pattern-match a problem and pumps a perfect solution into one's brain. That doesn't have to be very sophisticated AI. But once this kind of augmentation is available, the pressure is on for everyone to get it, or for the tech to be banned, or for the evaluation criteria to change.
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  > money or prestige Or accomplishment. Some people cheat just to accomplish something.
  - fdhfdjkfhdkj 5y ago
    Or just to watch the world burn...
  - frobozz 5y ago
    Not really, because if they cheated, they didn't actually accomplish it. They cheat to gain the prestige of having accomplished it.
    - watwut 5y ago
      No. They still feel accomplished. It is self deception, but many people are good at double thing. The sense of accomplishment comes from beating someone for many people. Cheats dont change that.
    - RHSeeger 5y ago
      This is incorrect. It is entirely possible to cheat and feel a sense of accomplishment. - You can cheat to finish a game and still enjoy the fact that you finished the parts that you didn't need to cheat by. - You can figure out how to cheat the game (ie, hex editing) yourself, and get a sense of accomplishment from that. It is entirely possible to both cheat at a game and have a sense of accomplishment related to that game. Just because it isn't something _you_ would do, doesn't mean it isn't true for others. Personally, I spent days mapping out the save file for Bard's Tale back in the day and manipulating it to my heart's content. It was fun, and I enjoyed it.
- ehnto 5y ago
  The analog to steroids and high-level competition is really interesting, something I've chatted with my friends about a bit. In some of the highest tier bodybuilding competitions, some people will be using steroids, and because that went unchecked and unspoken, now everyone has to or else they have no chance of competing. If you want to compete and you aren't using steroids, you will lose, so you have to start using them too. In the game Warzone right now, at least some of the high-tier players are using hacks in competition or at least to get their "High kill game" viral videos on YouTube. So if you want to compete in that space, say make an even more impressive "high kill" game and take that crown, you have to start using hacks too. The money on the line is bonkers too, as well as the ad-revenue from popular YouTube videos, you've got real competitions dropping 300k on online comps where it's incredibly easy to get away with cheating, so of course people will do it. Because some people do it, others will have to as well, and it goes unspoken because of all the money and prestige involved. Because it's advantageous for the competitions holders themselves to be hosting the highest level of competition for the sport, if Warzone comps or these bodybuilding competitions had to admit that all their most popular and highest performing participants were frauds, it would be incredibly embarrassing (and unprofitable) for everyone, and so it stays unspoken.
  - toxik 5y ago
    A key difference is that steroids are a sacrifice. You mess with your actual body. Cheating in a game? Yeah you injected a DLL into dynamic memory…
    - Synaesthesia 5y ago
      Yeah and you're still going to have to do all the work and be a talented athlete to be at the top, unlike with hacks or cheats.
      - Google234 5y ago
        Depends if you are making or buying one.
      - Kalleklovn 5y ago
- wccrawford 5y ago
  First, people who cheat in multiplayer games are awful, and it's unethical and unconscionable. However, cheating in single-player games is perfectly okay in my book. When I'm cheating in a solo FPS or other game, I still enjoy the game. The cheating is a way to tackle some aspect of the game that I don't enjoy, while still enjoying the rest. I can actually put on god-mode and unlimited everything and still enjoy moving through the game and doing things. Even the battles can still be somewhat fun under those conditions, even knowing that I can't possibly fail. So it doesn't surprise me that the rush of beating real people still exists even when you're having the computer do most or all of the work.
  - schwartzworld 5y ago
    It's not unethical to cheat at solitaire. Hot take.
  - smolder 5y ago
    I agree, I should have clarified that I was talking about multiplayer games, particularly the competitive ones. In single player, the only experience you can spoil is your own, so whatever people enjoy is fine to do.
- hnick 5y ago
  There's also trolling. myg0t cheated brazenly simply to piss people off and get a reaction. I never saw the point but clearly some people enjoy this.
  - smolder 5y ago
    Yeah, that kind of sadistic motivation doesn't quite fit my "prestige" label, although seeking notoriety kind of relates to both.
rantwasp 5y ago
yeah no. A machine does not have motivation. It does not have urges and desires. It may solve a problem perfectly buy it’s gonna be a while until they can grok why solving problems is worthwhile to begin with.
- nzmsv 5y ago
  That's the point: the AI in my imaginary world doesn't need desires. The human brain is acting as a "desire coprocessor".
  - rolleiflex 5y ago
    This is such an underrated idea. It is possible that at the logical conclusion of the current trend of machines getting better at previously human-only things, it might turn out that all we can really do that a machine cannot, is to want things. I don’t know if that is better than the alternative ending, but it’s something to think about.
    - pmontra 5y ago
      It started a long ago. I want to go to the sea and my car brings me there faster than I could if I walked. Actually, I'd never been at the sea if there were no machines (trains first). But the train, the car, the AI are only tools. Not much different than a knife or its first ancestors, the flint shards.
      - imtringued 5y ago
        Interesting, machines (and technically all human creation) not only fulfill desires, they also create them.
mwcremer 5y ago
Asimov had a thought about machines battling for supremacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power
0-_-0 5y ago
Actually, it might be a good idea to instead of banning cheaters just put them on the same server to play each other without telling them.
- imtringued 5y ago
  Create a super human rank that is so extremely difficult to achieve that only bots can compete there. The next problem is that cheaters may decide to cheat 100% in one match and 0% in the other until they hit human ranks again. You'd have to write the scoring algorithm in a way that weights performance within individual games higher than average performance over multiple games. If cheaters insist on fighting human players they must lower the performance of their cheats to a human level. This allows people to cheat up to any rank they want but from the perspective of other players the game is still fair.
ithkuil 5y ago
Said primates have a dopamine down if they realize their life has no meaning, so the AI must provide them some meaning (illusion) so that they get back to the desired dopamine levels EDIT: for example by pretending they are just crappy machines and they need a human to be really good at doing things EDIT2: oh too much snow, I can't drive, please human help me out!

by nzmsv 5y ago

smolder 5y ago

Cheats are about two things: money or prestige. People want to get back at the players who so rudely beat them normally, and get high competitive rankings that make them look better than other players in that games community. Or, they use the cheats to create high ranking game accounts to sell to players who want to look good, or they simply cheat to win prize money. It should go without saying that this kind of activity destroys the interest in games affected by it. People don't like playing against superhuman enemies and having their progress impeded by it. It doesn't make sense that it would be enjoyable to play except that you can enjoy making money or making other people feel bad.

nzmsv 5y ago
That's exactly what I meant by my "preview of the future" comment. Imagine the same scenario, but in a higher-stakes environment than playing a game. Let's imagine there is a "leetcode aug" that lets one instantly pattern-match a problem and pumps a perfect solution into one's brain. That doesn't have to be very sophisticated AI. But once this kind of augmentation is available, the pressure is on for everyone to get it, or for the tech to be banned, or for the evaluation criteria to change.
RHSeeger 5y ago
> money or prestige Or accomplishment. Some people cheat just to accomplish something.
- fdhfdjkfhdkj 5y ago
  Or just to watch the world burn...
- frobozz 5y ago
  Not really, because if they cheated, they didn't actually accomplish it. They cheat to gain the prestige of having accomplished it.
  - watwut 5y ago
    No. They still feel accomplished. It is self deception, but many people are good at double thing. The sense of accomplishment comes from beating someone for many people. Cheats dont change that.
  - RHSeeger 5y ago
    This is incorrect. It is entirely possible to cheat and feel a sense of accomplishment. - You can cheat to finish a game and still enjoy the fact that you finished the parts that you didn't need to cheat by. - You can figure out how to cheat the game (ie, hex editing) yourself, and get a sense of accomplishment from that. It is entirely possible to both cheat at a game and have a sense of accomplishment related to that game. Just because it isn't something _you_ would do, doesn't mean it isn't true for others. Personally, I spent days mapping out the save file for Bard's Tale back in the day and manipulating it to my heart's content. It was fun, and I enjoyed it.
ehnto 5y ago
The analog to steroids and high-level competition is really interesting, something I've chatted with my friends about a bit. In some of the highest tier bodybuilding competitions, some people will be using steroids, and because that went unchecked and unspoken, now everyone has to or else they have no chance of competing. If you want to compete and you aren't using steroids, you will lose, so you have to start using them too. In the game Warzone right now, at least some of the high-tier players are using hacks in competition or at least to get their "High kill game" viral videos on YouTube. So if you want to compete in that space, say make an even more impressive "high kill" game and take that crown, you have to start using hacks too. The money on the line is bonkers too, as well as the ad-revenue from popular YouTube videos, you've got real competitions dropping 300k on online comps where it's incredibly easy to get away with cheating, so of course people will do it. Because some people do it, others will have to as well, and it goes unspoken because of all the money and prestige involved. Because it's advantageous for the competitions holders themselves to be hosting the highest level of competition for the sport, if Warzone comps or these bodybuilding competitions had to admit that all their most popular and highest performing participants were frauds, it would be incredibly embarrassing (and unprofitable) for everyone, and so it stays unspoken.
- toxik 5y ago
  A key difference is that steroids are a sacrifice. You mess with your actual body. Cheating in a game? Yeah you injected a DLL into dynamic memory…
  - Synaesthesia 5y ago
    Yeah and you're still going to have to do all the work and be a talented athlete to be at the top, unlike with hacks or cheats.
    - Google234 5y ago
      Depends if you are making or buying one.
    - Kalleklovn 5y ago
wccrawford 5y ago
First, people who cheat in multiplayer games are awful, and it's unethical and unconscionable. However, cheating in single-player games is perfectly okay in my book. When I'm cheating in a solo FPS or other game, I still enjoy the game. The cheating is a way to tackle some aspect of the game that I don't enjoy, while still enjoying the rest. I can actually put on god-mode and unlimited everything and still enjoy moving through the game and doing things. Even the battles can still be somewhat fun under those conditions, even knowing that I can't possibly fail. So it doesn't surprise me that the rush of beating real people still exists even when you're having the computer do most or all of the work.
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  It's not unethical to cheat at solitaire. Hot take.
- smolder 5y ago
  I agree, I should have clarified that I was talking about multiplayer games, particularly the competitive ones. In single player, the only experience you can spoil is your own, so whatever people enjoy is fine to do.
hnick 5y ago
There's also trolling. myg0t cheated brazenly simply to piss people off and get a reaction. I never saw the point but clearly some people enjoy this.
- smolder 5y ago
  Yeah, that kind of sadistic motivation doesn't quite fit my "prestige" label, although seeking notoriety kind of relates to both.

rantwasp 5y ago

yeah no. A machine does not have motivation. It does not have urges and desires. It may solve a problem perfectly buy it’s gonna be a while until they can grok why solving problems is worthwhile to begin with.

nzmsv 5y ago
That's the point: the AI in my imaginary world doesn't need desires. The human brain is acting as a "desire coprocessor".
- rolleiflex 5y ago
  This is such an underrated idea. It is possible that at the logical conclusion of the current trend of machines getting better at previously human-only things, it might turn out that all we can really do that a machine cannot, is to want things. I don’t know if that is better than the alternative ending, but it’s something to think about.
  - pmontra 5y ago
    It started a long ago. I want to go to the sea and my car brings me there faster than I could if I walked. Actually, I'd never been at the sea if there were no machines (trains first). But the train, the car, the AI are only tools. Not much different than a knife or its first ancestors, the flint shards.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      Interesting, machines (and technically all human creation) not only fulfill desires, they also create them.

mwcremer 5y ago

Asimov had a thought about machines battling for supremacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power

0-_-0 5y ago

Actually, it might be a good idea to instead of banning cheaters just put them on the same server to play each other without telling them.

imtringued 5y ago
Create a super human rank that is so extremely difficult to achieve that only bots can compete there. The next problem is that cheaters may decide to cheat 100% in one match and 0% in the other until they hit human ranks again. You'd have to write the scoring algorithm in a way that weights performance within individual games higher than average performance over multiple games. If cheaters insist on fighting human players they must lower the performance of their cheats to a human level. This allows people to cheat up to any rank they want but from the perspective of other players the game is still fair.

ithkuil 5y ago

Said primates have a dopamine down if they realize their life has no meaning, so the AI must provide them some meaning (illusion) so that they get back to the desired dopamine levels EDIT: for example by pretending they are just crappy machines and they need a human to be really good at doing things EDIT2: oh too much snow, I can't drive, please human help me out!