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A toxic culture of fear is the intended effect here. People at amazon love to discuss the flywheel effect[1]. The flywheel here is the culture of fear that kee

by mataug 5y ago

A toxic culture of fear is the intended effect here. People at amazon love to discuss the flywheel effect[1]. The flywheel here is the culture of fear that keeps employees on their toes. Bezos believes that employees are inherently lazy[2], and it seems like fear is tool the S-team have chosen to solve the problem of lazy employees. This has a lot of unintended consequences[3], but the executives with the power to change this don't care as long as they keep getting rewarded with a higher stock price, and fresh college grads who are willing to sacrifice themselves at the altar. [1]https://feedvisor.com/resources/amazon-trends/amazon-flywheel-explained/ https://feedvisor.com/resources/amazon-trends/amazon-flywhee... [2]https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-polices-based-jeff-bezos-belief-all-workers-are-lazy-2021-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-polices-based-jeff-be... [3]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786829

UnpossibleJim 5y ago
Do you think that this culture will shift with his retirement, or do you think that this culture is so embedded within the fabric of Amazon itself, that there is no separating this kind of behavior from the company without a dismantling of the corporate structure itself?
- mataug 5y ago
  Andy Jassy used to lead AWS before becoming Amazon's CEO. AWS has a reputation of being a difficult place to work, even more so than Amazon's other divisions. So no, I don't think anything will change. https://www.newstatesman.com/business/companies/2021/02/he-leads-fear-and-pressure-former-amazon-employees-andy-jassy-companys https://www.newstatesman.com/business/companies/2021/02/he-l...
  - traskjd 5y ago
    Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division. Pointing out that someone has it shittier is typically an excuse for shittyness.
      - dvtrn 5y ago
        Or in some cases letting said shittiness manifest because the person doing the pointing isn't themselves subject to it and/or could stand to lose ground when someone decides to do something about it.
      - traskjd 5y ago
        Yes that’s why I thought it odd to say the AWS devs have it hardest in the whole company. It’s not a competition though it always feels a bit silly to pretend back breaking physical labor is easier than sitting in an air conditioned office in a chair.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        The strongest plausible interpretation is they meant for equivalent jobs.
  - lgylym 5y ago
    Inside Amazon AWS is considered a better place than other places actually
- ToxicMegacolon 5y ago
  Unless they dump the entire senior management and bring new folks in, its not changing. That culture is at the core of Amazon, and perhaps even a contributor to its success, at the detriment of its own employees of course.
  - meh99 5y ago
    I think we define success too narrowly for these sprawling organizations with massive social influence. How much political scrip such an organization generates given esoteric economic measures should not outweigh real world impact
- Retric 5y ago
  Company culture always decays over time to reflect incentives. Not to denigrate Andy Jassy as a Harvard MBA turned Marketing Manager who moved up to become a CEO. But upper management always ends up with the kinds of people who tend to reach upper management in any company. That said, Amazon’s culture is closer to the norm than most startups so in the short term things are unlikely to change much. At least until some new management fad becomes popular or they run into a significant issue.
da_big_ghey 5y ago
yes here. if no person knows if is on performence management plan all must act like they are on probation of some sort, work much extra. like dictatorship where person may be monitored any time and so always act like this.
grayfaced 5y ago
Imagine suffering from imposter syndrome in an office with this fear culture. People will work themselves to the bone trying to fix personal perceived inadequecies. Then they burnout and quit. I guess if workers are considered expendable than that's a positive. Corporations need to be more accountable to their workers welfare and not solely stockholder's welfare.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Given their seeming labour challenges, maybe it is a self regulating problem?
- dralley 5y ago
  Precisely this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEaxYCrj-8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEaxYCrj-8w
- chii 5y ago
  > Corporations need to be more accountable to their workers welfare and not solely stockholder's welfare. there's no incentive for doing so. As far as the owner of the company is concerned, ensuring there s a pay-cheque is the end of the company's responsibility.
- vladTheInhaler 5y ago
  My understanding is that some systems, for instance in Germany, have a system like this. The employees have elected representatives on the board of directors, giving them a direct say in corporate policies.

by mataug 5y ago

UnpossibleJim 5y ago

Do you think that this culture will shift with his retirement, or do you think that this culture is so embedded within the fabric of Amazon itself, that there is no separating this kind of behavior from the company without a dismantling of the corporate structure itself?

mataug 5y ago
Andy Jassy used to lead AWS before becoming Amazon's CEO. AWS has a reputation of being a difficult place to work, even more so than Amazon's other divisions. So no, I don't think anything will change. https://www.newstatesman.com/business/companies/2021/02/he-leads-fear-and-pressure-former-amazon-employees-andy-jassy-companys https://www.newstatesman.com/business/companies/2021/02/he-l...
- traskjd 5y ago
  Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division. Pointing out that someone has it shittier is typically an excuse for shittyness.
    - dvtrn 5y ago
      Or in some cases letting said shittiness manifest because the person doing the pointing isn't themselves subject to it and/or could stand to lose ground when someone decides to do something about it.
    - traskjd 5y ago
      Yes that’s why I thought it odd to say the AWS devs have it hardest in the whole company. It’s not a competition though it always feels a bit silly to pretend back breaking physical labor is easier than sitting in an air conditioned office in a chair.
      - pseudalopex 5y ago
        The strongest plausible interpretation is they meant for equivalent jobs.
- lgylym 5y ago
  Inside Amazon AWS is considered a better place than other places actually
ToxicMegacolon 5y ago
Unless they dump the entire senior management and bring new folks in, its not changing. That culture is at the core of Amazon, and perhaps even a contributor to its success, at the detriment of its own employees of course.
- meh99 5y ago
  I think we define success too narrowly for these sprawling organizations with massive social influence. How much political scrip such an organization generates given esoteric economic measures should not outweigh real world impact
Retric 5y ago
Company culture always decays over time to reflect incentives. Not to denigrate Andy Jassy as a Harvard MBA turned Marketing Manager who moved up to become a CEO. But upper management always ends up with the kinds of people who tend to reach upper management in any company. That said, Amazon’s culture is closer to the norm than most startups so in the short term things are unlikely to change much. At least until some new management fad becomes popular or they run into a significant issue.

da_big_ghey 5y ago

yes here. if no person knows if is on performence management plan all must act like they are on probation of some sort, work much extra. like dictatorship where person may be monitored any time and so always act like this.

grayfaced 5y ago

Imagine suffering from imposter syndrome in an office with this fear culture. People will work themselves to the bone trying to fix personal perceived inadequecies. Then they burnout and quit. I guess if workers are considered expendable than that's a positive. Corporations need to be more accountable to their workers welfare and not solely stockholder's welfare.

MattGaiser 5y ago
Given their seeming labour challenges, maybe it is a self regulating problem?
dralley 5y ago
Precisely this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEaxYCrj-8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEaxYCrj-8w
chii 5y ago
> Corporations need to be more accountable to their workers welfare and not solely stockholder's welfare. there's no incentive for doing so. As far as the owner of the company is concerned, ensuring there s a pay-cheque is the end of the company's responsibility.
vladTheInhaler 5y ago
My understanding is that some systems, for instance in Germany, have a system like this. The employees have elected representatives on the board of directors, giving them a direct say in corporate policies.