6 ms·

> Of course we as a company are also cognizant of the IntelliJ lock-in There's your politics. Kotlin is succeeding because of it's ties to a very popular Java

> Of course we as a company are also cognizant of the IntelliJ lock-in There's your politics. Kotlin is succeeding because of it's ties to a very popular Java IDE, so developers already using IntelliJ tend to trust it. It wouldn't do nearly as well without that built in base of support.

listenallyall 5y ago
It's primarily utility, not politics. Yes, sure, Kotlin gets free press because Jetbrains and Google support it... but it's also because Kotlin is a brilliant language, it had an initial use case that was in extremely high demand (building Android apps) and JVM compatibility meant it had an enormous ecosystem of compatible packages from the start. But instead of just sitting back and riding on its initial popularity (that would be "politics"), the language has added more and more use cases (backend, multiplatform, JS), expanded its scope (kotlinx extensions), and built a following and a Kotlin-specific ecosystem of packages and tools that often surpasses the JVM equivalents in utility and quality.
- ukj 5y ago
  The "brilliance" of any technology is not intrinsic to the technology. It's determined by humans. It's always politics.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    I see, so when I need to travel from Los Angeles to New York, deciding whether to fly on a commercial airplane or ride a bicycle, is a political decision? Reducing travel time by 99.99% isn't an intrinsic feature of airplane travel?
    - ukj 5y ago
      Would you say the 99.99% reduction in travel time is “brilliant”? Me, I like sight seeing. A bicycle ride sounds brilliant. Even though it is much slower.
      - listenallyall 5y ago
        Yes, I would absolutely state that there are dozens, perhaps hundreds or thousands, of brilliant innovations, technologies and engineering feats that make it possible for a 757 to exist, and fly so safely, routinely and inexpensively that the general public takes it entirely for granted.
        ukj 5y ago
        I’ll try make the point one last time then let you be. “Brilliance” is a human attitude towards technology. It is not an intrinsic property of technology.
        listenallyall 5y ago
        I agree that the word brilliant is an adjective that humans can choose to use or not use to describe a particular technology. Your initial statement was that making that decision is always due to politics, as opposed to a person's genuine opinion... or perhaps implying that people simply don't have the ability to evaluate something independently.
        ukj 5y ago
        Because brilliance is about the people not about the technology it is political by definition
    - addicted 5y ago
      It actually is. A country which would have made different political decisions may have decided to not provide a direct airplane flight, or as good of an interstate road system that makes the drive possible. They may have provided high speed rail instead that could have potentially been better if that’s what the country had chosen.
- forty 5y ago
  I think the fact that Google was not updating the java usable on Android might have also played a big role in kotlin adoption, don't you think? Honestly I feel kotlin doesn't add much to modern java, and if possible I think it's generally better to use the native language to the platform. Probably a reason why kotlin is not that popular on the backend where people can use modern java :) I think jimbokun statement is 100 percent correct which doesn't mean kotlin is a bad language.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    > Honestly I feel kotlin doesn't add much to modern java In that case, I hope you won't mind that I'll be ignoring the rest of your opinions on this particular topic.
    - forty 5y ago
      I do not mind at all :)
    - gregopet 5y ago
      Java is verbose by design while Kotlin is pragmatic. That's why I prefer Kotlin, even though on the backend I could have just as well taken the latest Java. That, and strict null checking.
lenkite 5y ago
Not just IDE. It's because Kotlin is a general purpose PL with wide utility and tooling which Clojure doesn't come close to. Clojure doesn't even work on mobile platforms.
- gdsdfe 5y ago
  I'm not a clojure dev but I don't think that's true, I think you can do react-native with clojurescript
  - jamil7 5y ago
    Third party React Native bindings for clojurescript vs official Android framework apis in Kotlin are not really comparable when evaluating each language for an Android app I’d argue. But you’re right in that it is somehow possible through enough layers.
quantified 5y ago
And basic similarity with Java- feels different and better, but not as different as F# from C#, or Clojure from Java. Scala’s an interesting case, it rather did catch on.
dangets 5y ago
Sure, I can see that. I was differentiating between internal company scale politics vs. larger-than-company politics. If Microsoft gave the same first-class promotion and support to F# that it did to C#, that would undoubtedly increase F# adoption. My experience is a micro-scale observation that it did not take much campaigning to convince developers to try it (given the existing level of support backed by Jetbrains).
- barrenko 5y ago
  And if Visual Studio had level of ergonomics any closer to JetBrains IDEs....

listenallyall 5y ago

It's primarily utility, not politics. Yes, sure, Kotlin gets free press because Jetbrains and Google support it... but it's also because Kotlin is a brilliant language, it had an initial use case that was in extremely high demand (building Android apps) and JVM compatibility meant it had an enormous ecosystem of compatible packages from the start. But instead of just sitting back and riding on its initial popularity (that would be "politics"), the language has added more and more use cases (backend, multiplatform, JS), expanded its scope (kotlinx extensions), and built a following and a Kotlin-specific ecosystem of packages and tools that often surpasses the JVM equivalents in utility and quality.

ukj 5y ago
The "brilliance" of any technology is not intrinsic to the technology. It's determined by humans. It's always politics.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- listenallyall 5y ago
  I see, so when I need to travel from Los Angeles to New York, deciding whether to fly on a commercial airplane or ride a bicycle, is a political decision? Reducing travel time by 99.99% isn't an intrinsic feature of airplane travel?
  - ukj 5y ago
    Would you say the 99.99% reduction in travel time is “brilliant”? Me, I like sight seeing. A bicycle ride sounds brilliant. Even though it is much slower.
    - listenallyall 5y ago
      Yes, I would absolutely state that there are dozens, perhaps hundreds or thousands, of brilliant innovations, technologies and engineering feats that make it possible for a 757 to exist, and fly so safely, routinely and inexpensively that the general public takes it entirely for granted.
      - ukj 5y ago
        I’ll try make the point one last time then let you be. “Brilliance” is a human attitude towards technology. It is not an intrinsic property of technology.
        listenallyall 5y ago
        I agree that the word brilliant is an adjective that humans can choose to use or not use to describe a particular technology. Your initial statement was that making that decision is always due to politics, as opposed to a person's genuine opinion... or perhaps implying that people simply don't have the ability to evaluate something independently.
        ukj 5y ago
        Because brilliance is about the people not about the technology it is political by definition
  - addicted 5y ago
    It actually is. A country which would have made different political decisions may have decided to not provide a direct airplane flight, or as good of an interstate road system that makes the drive possible. They may have provided high speed rail instead that could have potentially been better if that’s what the country had chosen.
forty 5y ago
I think the fact that Google was not updating the java usable on Android might have also played a big role in kotlin adoption, don't you think? Honestly I feel kotlin doesn't add much to modern java, and if possible I think it's generally better to use the native language to the platform. Probably a reason why kotlin is not that popular on the backend where people can use modern java :) I think jimbokun statement is 100 percent correct which doesn't mean kotlin is a bad language.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  > Honestly I feel kotlin doesn't add much to modern java In that case, I hope you won't mind that I'll be ignoring the rest of your opinions on this particular topic.
  - forty 5y ago
    I do not mind at all :)
  - gregopet 5y ago
    Java is verbose by design while Kotlin is pragmatic. That's why I prefer Kotlin, even though on the backend I could have just as well taken the latest Java. That, and strict null checking.

lenkite 5y ago

Not just IDE. It's because Kotlin is a general purpose PL with wide utility and tooling which Clojure doesn't come close to. Clojure doesn't even work on mobile platforms.

gdsdfe 5y ago
I'm not a clojure dev but I don't think that's true, I think you can do react-native with clojurescript
- jamil7 5y ago
  Third party React Native bindings for clojurescript vs official Android framework apis in Kotlin are not really comparable when evaluating each language for an Android app I’d argue. But you’re right in that it is somehow possible through enough layers.

quantified 5y ago

And basic similarity with Java- feels different and better, but not as different as F# from C#, or Clojure from Java. Scala’s an interesting case, it rather did catch on.

dangets 5y ago

Sure, I can see that. I was differentiating between internal company scale politics vs. larger-than-company politics. If Microsoft gave the same first-class promotion and support to F# that it did to C#, that would undoubtedly increase F# adoption. My experience is a micro-scale observation that it did not take much campaigning to convince developers to try it (given the existing level of support backed by Jetbrains).

barrenko 5y ago
And if Visual Studio had level of ergonomics any closer to JetBrains IDEs....