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It's honestly pretty amazing that graal enterprise can offer 42% performance over HotSpot/C2. You would think Oracle would want to upstream those improvements t

by vips7L 5y ago

It's honestly pretty amazing that graal enterprise can offer 42% performance over HotSpot/C2. You would think Oracle would want to upstream those improvements to HotSpot to keep it as fast as possible.

mey 5y ago
This is the product they are selling. Unfortunately, this approach is what's keeping me away from Graal in general as well.
mumblemumble 5y ago
For one specific use case. Given that we're talking unpsecified Apache Spark workloads, it's a little hard to know exactly what's going on. I think that the author is correct, though, to point out that there's reason to believe that Spark workloads might see a larger benefit than other kinds of Java applications.
geodel 5y ago
> You would think Oracle would want to upstream ... Why would I think this and not that Oracle would want to make money off their unique IP?
native_samples 5y ago
The Graal team is huge. Like, I don't know, at least 70 people and probably more. So that's very expensive. Oracle Java is best understood as two competing teams at this point. In theory GraalVM started out as a research project to feed improvements back to HotSpot and some of that they've done, like with the JVMCI interface that was added. But it didn't work out that way for whatever reason and GraalVM is now effectively a competitor to the 'classical' Sun Java product guys. They have different brand names, commercial models, feature priorities, price points, they are different organisations within the company. Fortunately GraalVM is not a fork of OpenJDK - it's a bunch of plugins and extra components, more or less. But at some level the difference is semantic because if you swap out the whole JIT compiler then maybe it actually is a fork? Not sure. Anyway the original research vision was that C2 would be replaced by Graal indeed. The politics of merging such a total rewrite would be difficult at the best of times and it seems Oracle hasn't managed it, or perhaps they like having some internal competition for the OpenJDK guys. Certainly Graal team cares a lot more about modern marketing, about getting their tech adopted into other Oracle products and things that presumably Oracle management care about. Like the graalvm.org website vs the OpenJDK website is no competition. The former feels like an actual product, the latter is a bunch of wiki pages more or less.

by vips7L 5y ago

mey 5y ago

This is the product they are selling. Unfortunately, this approach is what's keeping me away from Graal in general as well.

mumblemumble 5y ago

For one specific use case. Given that we're talking unpsecified Apache Spark workloads, it's a little hard to know exactly what's going on. I think that the author is correct, though, to point out that there's reason to believe that Spark workloads might see a larger benefit than other kinds of Java applications.

geodel 5y ago

> You would think Oracle would want to upstream ... Why would I think this and not that Oracle would want to make money off their unique IP?

native_samples 5y ago

The Graal team is huge. Like, I don't know, at least 70 people and probably more. So that's very expensive. Oracle Java is best understood as two competing teams at this point. In theory GraalVM started out as a research project to feed improvements back to HotSpot and some of that they've done, like with the JVMCI interface that was added. But it didn't work out that way for whatever reason and GraalVM is now effectively a competitor to the 'classical' Sun Java product guys. They have different brand names, commercial models, feature priorities, price points, they are different organisations within the company. Fortunately GraalVM is not a fork of OpenJDK - it's a bunch of plugins and extra components, more or less. But at some level the difference is semantic because if you swap out the whole JIT compiler then maybe it actually is a fork? Not sure. Anyway the original research vision was that C2 would be replaced by Graal indeed. The politics of merging such a total rewrite would be difficult at the best of times and it seems Oracle hasn't managed it, or perhaps they like having some internal competition for the OpenJDK guys. Certainly Graal team cares a lot more about modern marketing, about getting their tech adopted into other Oracle products and things that presumably Oracle management care about. Like the graalvm.org website vs the OpenJDK website is no competition. The former feels like an actual product, the latter is a bunch of wiki pages more or less.