7 ms·

Or because Europe is a bureaucratic nightmare.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
Certainly doesn't help. One of the things I was most surprised about when I worked for e-Residency in Estonia was how many users were actually from inside the EU but didn't want to incorporate in their own country because of the bureaucracy or how arbitrarily rules could be interpreted by authorities (one Greek or Italian entrepreneur mentioned to me going to several tax officials to ask one question and getting different answers from each of them ).
piva00 5y ago
Unlike the US? From what I've experienced and seen the US is another bureaucratic nightmare, it's just more localised in the states/counties but regulations vary quite a lot, creating its own set of nightmares. Europe varies as lot as well, I wouldn't say that here in Sweden it's a bureaucratic nightmare by any stretch, it's quite straightforward in most cases.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  @piva00 Really? I rarely hear people comment on things like that in the U.S. except in really regulated industries like healthcare and finance. When you can start a company via Stripe Atlas in a few mins and get a bank account, that seems relatively streamlined. Plus workers rights are minimal so you can easily fire people in most right to work states, etc.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    > When you can start a company via Stripe Atlas in a few mins and get a bank account, that seems relatively streamlined Correct, but that's a small part of it. In fact why would you even need Stripe Atlas if it's easy to open? Not forgetting a lot of state/city bureaucracy and also what I call private bureaucracy and complications. (as in landlords, clients, service providers, etc) Bureaucracy is a bit like "the air", people who are born onto it don't see it and don't understand too much how it can be different (of course, in the most egregious cases it wouldn't be hard to optimize/simplify) BUT there's a bit of blindness when it refers to your own country's bureaucracy. (and of course, there are always things that are done 'under the table')
    - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
      Yep, I partially withdraw my previous statement. You make an excellent point- I guess as someone who just grew up in the US and understands the legalese and ways of doing business and where to look it probably seems a lot easier than it would be to someone totally new to the country. Still probably better than much of the EU with a few exceptions like NL and Estonia but point well taken.
  - jahewson 5y ago
    No you have it backwards. Stripe Atlas only exists because registering a business here sucks. I can start a business in the UK via the government website in a few minutes for a cost of £14/yr. In the US I had to use a 3rd party service because the process is total garbage, takes weeks to complete and requires sending physical paperwork and checks to Sacramento. I have to register in both Delaware and my home state, pay minimum, mandatory taxes to both, totalling ~1000$/yr and pay $100/yr for someone to sit in an office and receive mail in case I get sued. I also have to file physical paperwork with my local city (despite no physical presence) and pay yet more fees. It’s rent-seeking, antiquated multi-level bureaucratic garbage and there’s zero interest in improving it because that would cost money. After all that I get the joy of filing taxes with all those entities, plus the federal government.
    - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
      @jahewson - you make an excellent point. I guess that's also why something like mainstreet.com exists. I've registered a business online myself in the US (Nevada) and it wasn't that hard but it doesn't sound as easy as it is in the UK. That said, I'm skeptical that the US is less business friendly than Europe overall.
      - jahewson 5y ago
        Overall is probably not a great measure because a business exists somewhere, not everywhere. The US is I think really only big-business friendly. If you’re a little guy they could care less about you. New business formation is dwindling. For example in most US states an employer can prevent you operating an unrelated side-business - how is that “business friendly”? The answer is it’s not - it’s capital-friendly. It has the effect of shutting out the broader populous from participating in business on their own terms. California gets this right! There’s also the question of what level “overall” is measured. The US makes it easy to exploit workers and so suffers the consequence of having to support an impoverished strata of society which generates negative tax income to the government. In a society that prevents this, the government can receive more taxes from more people and offer more services, including making business formation easier - a virtuous cycle.
- shafyy 5y ago
  The level of bureaucracy differs from country to country in EU. I grew up in Switzerland and always thought they're super bureaucratic. Now I live in Berlin and that's a whole other level of bureaucracy.
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    Totally, in Estonia even as a foreigner it was pretty easy to navigate bureaucracy for starting companies and immigration and even taxes. In Germany I didn't even bother trying to do it myself because it was so over the top. Luckily the company that hired me paid for a relocation service and had a person on staff that did incorporation and tax related for their ventures.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
chme 5y ago
Well, bureaucracy is one of the only things that somewhat protect against corruption.

Certainly doesn't help. One of the things I was most surprised about when I worked for e-Residency in Estonia was how many users were actually from inside the EU but didn't want to incorporate in their own country because of the bureaucracy or how arbitrarily rules could be interpreted by authorities (one Greek or Italian entrepreneur mentioned to me going to several tax officials to ask one question and getting different answers from each of them ).

piva00 5y ago

Unlike the US? From what I've experienced and seen the US is another bureaucratic nightmare, it's just more localised in the states/counties but regulations vary quite a lot, creating its own set of nightmares. Europe varies as lot as well, I wouldn't say that here in Sweden it's a bureaucratic nightmare by any stretch, it's quite straightforward in most cases.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
@piva00 Really? I rarely hear people comment on things like that in the U.S. except in really regulated industries like healthcare and finance. When you can start a company via Stripe Atlas in a few mins and get a bank account, that seems relatively streamlined. Plus workers rights are minimal so you can easily fire people in most right to work states, etc.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > When you can start a company via Stripe Atlas in a few mins and get a bank account, that seems relatively streamlined Correct, but that's a small part of it. In fact why would you even need Stripe Atlas if it's easy to open? Not forgetting a lot of state/city bureaucracy and also what I call private bureaucracy and complications. (as in landlords, clients, service providers, etc) Bureaucracy is a bit like "the air", people who are born onto it don't see it and don't understand too much how it can be different (of course, in the most egregious cases it wouldn't be hard to optimize/simplify) BUT there's a bit of blindness when it refers to your own country's bureaucracy. (and of course, there are always things that are done 'under the table')
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    Yep, I partially withdraw my previous statement. You make an excellent point- I guess as someone who just grew up in the US and understands the legalese and ways of doing business and where to look it probably seems a lot easier than it would be to someone totally new to the country. Still probably better than much of the EU with a few exceptions like NL and Estonia but point well taken.
- jahewson 5y ago
  No you have it backwards. Stripe Atlas only exists because registering a business here sucks. I can start a business in the UK via the government website in a few minutes for a cost of £14/yr. In the US I had to use a 3rd party service because the process is total garbage, takes weeks to complete and requires sending physical paperwork and checks to Sacramento. I have to register in both Delaware and my home state, pay minimum, mandatory taxes to both, totalling ~1000$/yr and pay $100/yr for someone to sit in an office and receive mail in case I get sued. I also have to file physical paperwork with my local city (despite no physical presence) and pay yet more fees. It’s rent-seeking, antiquated multi-level bureaucratic garbage and there’s zero interest in improving it because that would cost money. After all that I get the joy of filing taxes with all those entities, plus the federal government.
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    @jahewson - you make an excellent point. I guess that's also why something like mainstreet.com exists. I've registered a business online myself in the US (Nevada) and it wasn't that hard but it doesn't sound as easy as it is in the UK. That said, I'm skeptical that the US is less business friendly than Europe overall.
    - jahewson 5y ago
      Overall is probably not a great measure because a business exists somewhere, not everywhere. The US is I think really only big-business friendly. If you’re a little guy they could care less about you. New business formation is dwindling. For example in most US states an employer can prevent you operating an unrelated side-business - how is that “business friendly”? The answer is it’s not - it’s capital-friendly. It has the effect of shutting out the broader populous from participating in business on their own terms. California gets this right! There’s also the question of what level “overall” is measured. The US makes it easy to exploit workers and so suffers the consequence of having to support an impoverished strata of society which generates negative tax income to the government. In a society that prevents this, the government can receive more taxes from more people and offer more services, including making business formation easier - a virtuous cycle.
shafyy 5y ago
The level of bureaucracy differs from country to country in EU. I grew up in Switzerland and always thought they're super bureaucratic. Now I live in Berlin and that's a whole other level of bureaucracy.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  Totally, in Estonia even as a foreigner it was pretty easy to navigate bureaucracy for starting companies and immigration and even taxes. In Germany I didn't even bother trying to do it myself because it was so over the top. Luckily the company that hired me paid for a relocation service and had a person on staff that did incorporation and tax related for their ventures.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

chme 5y ago

Well, bureaucracy is one of the only things that somewhat protect against corruption.