4 ms·

Years ago (2007ish) I worked for a startup owned by a guy that relocated to Reno and had a huge property in some mountaintop country club on the edge of the cit

by tomc1985 5y ago

Years ago (2007ish) I worked for a startup owned by a guy that relocated to Reno and had a huge property in some mountaintop country club on the edge of the city line. As we stood in the snow, looking out over Reno (where they had none) he was telling me all about how the money he saved on taxes in California 100% financed the property we were standing on. It was a very nice house... guessing about 4000 or 5000 sqft. Many many years later I was sitting at the bar at the top of the Stratosphere in Las Vegas eavesdropping on a conversation by a guy who started some kind of sanitation or janitorial business. He was trying to impress a woman that he was talking with, and I distinctly remember him saying he'd be eaten alive if he started the company in California, and that he was thankful for the tax situation in Nevada. So I don't think this is entirely a myth.

wolverine876 5y ago
It's not a myth because you heard two people talk about it? It's not entirely a myth, I think we can all agree - of the tens of millions of people in CA, some think that way. But CA has long invested large amounts in its people (one reason there is U Cal Berkley, which is one reason for the Bay Area's success), which of course requires taxes, and it long has protected its citizens, including the wealthy ones - something the citizens like and vote for.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  My point is that it is happening, if my anecdata is to be believed, and that sampling theory suggests it might be (or have been) a trend. As a CA native I love my state, but it is also important to understand other perspectives.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > sampling theory suggests it might be (or have been) a trend How does sampling theory support that your two experiences might be a trend? I got two flat tires in the last ten years. Does sampling theory say it's a trend? Statewide? Worldwide? > it is also important to understand other perspectives Absolutely, but let's remember that much of the narrative has been pushed by a political faction for years.
    - tomc1985 5y ago
      > How does sampling theory support that your two experiences might be a trend? I got two flat tires in the last ten years. Does sampling theory say it's a trend? Statewide? Worldwide? I don't run with startup/entrepreneurial types, so for this to come up in the way it has with my limited exposure to these folks, I consider that at least somewhat significant. I am not saying it is definitely a trend. But I do remember from my social science labs that ballpark-accurate statistical inferences can be made from surprisingly small sample sizes if the population sampled is broad enough. Do I just happen to find myself around locationally-anxious ex-Californian business owners? Who knows. > Absolutely, but let's remember that much of the narrative has been pushed by a political faction for years Ah yes, politics' icy tendrils (tentacles?) seem to molest everything they come across, and even some things they don't. All I can say is that I am not trying to push a political narrative, and that the people who are should kindly jump off a cliff.
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        I think those small samples need to be larger than that, and they have to be representative samples. > I am not trying to push a political narrative, and that the people who are should kindly jump off a cliff. I am not at all saying that you are. I'm saying that the narrative affects the situation. I agree about the cliff!
        beckingz 5y ago
        9 people gets you a significant portion of the confidence that a larger survey provides.
        wolverine876 5y ago
        ? It depends on the size of the population. I don't believe surveying 9 people will tell you anything about public opinion among the ~325 million Americans. And again, it must be representative. Should I ask 9 friends of mine?
astrange 5y ago
> He was trying to impress a woman that he was talking with, and I distinctly remember him saying he'd be eaten alive if he started the company in California, and that he was thankful for the tax situation in Nevada. He doesn't know that because he didn't try it. There's news articles every year that California "has the worst business environment in the US" or stuff like that, but they're all based on surveys and what they actually mean is business owners are whining in case they get an income tax cut. CA's economy is, of course, doing great, and for the middle class the tax burden is less than Texas if you remember to count taxes other than income tax.
- refurb 5y ago
  No way tax burden is less for the middle class.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
There are markets that are filled up with established players and lots of competition, and then there are markets with more opportunity because they are still developing. You can get eaten alive by competition as well as taxes, more so in fact. It isn’t clear that any of the two cases you referred to are because of taxes rather than competing in mature markets.
xadhominemx 5y ago
Incline Village aka Income Village, NV has been a popular destination for tax avoidance for decades. It’s true that people move states (in reality or on paper) to decrease their tax burdens. What isn’t true is that this sort of behavior has recently accelerated and turned into something that could be characterized as an exodus.

wolverine876 5y ago

It's not a myth because you heard two people talk about it? It's not entirely a myth, I think we can all agree - of the tens of millions of people in CA, some think that way. But CA has long invested large amounts in its people (one reason there is U Cal Berkley, which is one reason for the Bay Area's success), which of course requires taxes, and it long has protected its citizens, including the wealthy ones - something the citizens like and vote for.

tomc1985 5y ago
My point is that it is happening, if my anecdata is to be believed, and that sampling theory suggests it might be (or have been) a trend. As a CA native I love my state, but it is also important to understand other perspectives.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > sampling theory suggests it might be (or have been) a trend How does sampling theory support that your two experiences might be a trend? I got two flat tires in the last ten years. Does sampling theory say it's a trend? Statewide? Worldwide? > it is also important to understand other perspectives Absolutely, but let's remember that much of the narrative has been pushed by a political faction for years.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    > How does sampling theory support that your two experiences might be a trend? I got two flat tires in the last ten years. Does sampling theory say it's a trend? Statewide? Worldwide? I don't run with startup/entrepreneurial types, so for this to come up in the way it has with my limited exposure to these folks, I consider that at least somewhat significant. I am not saying it is definitely a trend. But I do remember from my social science labs that ballpark-accurate statistical inferences can be made from surprisingly small sample sizes if the population sampled is broad enough. Do I just happen to find myself around locationally-anxious ex-Californian business owners? Who knows. > Absolutely, but let's remember that much of the narrative has been pushed by a political faction for years Ah yes, politics' icy tendrils (tentacles?) seem to molest everything they come across, and even some things they don't. All I can say is that I am not trying to push a political narrative, and that the people who are should kindly jump off a cliff.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      I think those small samples need to be larger than that, and they have to be representative samples. > I am not trying to push a political narrative, and that the people who are should kindly jump off a cliff. I am not at all saying that you are. I'm saying that the narrative affects the situation. I agree about the cliff!
      - beckingz 5y ago
        9 people gets you a significant portion of the confidence that a larger survey provides.
        wolverine876 5y ago
        ? It depends on the size of the population. I don't believe surveying 9 people will tell you anything about public opinion among the ~325 million Americans. And again, it must be representative. Should I ask 9 friends of mine?

astrange 5y ago

> He was trying to impress a woman that he was talking with, and I distinctly remember him saying he'd be eaten alive if he started the company in California, and that he was thankful for the tax situation in Nevada. He doesn't know that because he didn't try it. There's news articles every year that California "has the worst business environment in the US" or stuff like that, but they're all based on surveys and what they actually mean is business owners are whining in case they get an income tax cut. CA's economy is, of course, doing great, and for the middle class the tax burden is less than Texas if you remember to count taxes other than income tax.

refurb 5y ago
No way tax burden is less for the middle class.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

There are markets that are filled up with established players and lots of competition, and then there are markets with more opportunity because they are still developing. You can get eaten alive by competition as well as taxes, more so in fact. It isn’t clear that any of the two cases you referred to are because of taxes rather than competing in mature markets.

xadhominemx 5y ago

Incline Village aka Income Village, NV has been a popular destination for tax avoidance for decades. It’s true that people move states (in reality or on paper) to decrease their tax burdens. What isn’t true is that this sort of behavior has recently accelerated and turned into something that could be characterized as an exodus.