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> The first kind of magic, which we shall call “Human”, is driven by the desire to extend one's power over the world, while simultaneously minimizing one's depe

> The first kind of magic, which we shall call “Human”, is driven by the desire to extend one's power over the world, while simultaneously minimizing one's dependence on the world ... The second kind of magic, which we shall call “Elvish”, is driven by the desire to extend one's understanding of the world, while simultaneously minimizing one's intentional interference with the ways of the world. Both of these ideas seem based on the assumption that consciousness is separate from the material conditions which give rise to it. The classical philosophy of the stoics, that humans are the means by which the universe observes and understands itself, seems to resolve the dilemma. If we subscribe to the philosophy that humans are both part of the natural world and are interested in understanding the natural world, this might lead us to conclude it is in our interest to pursue capital intensive advanced research projects such as building orbital telescopes or high energy super colliders to probe the deeper mysteries of the universe. If that is the case, then it is self-evident that we also need to possess a large mastery over the environment in order to understand the environment, to pursue progress towards such ends in a sustainable and resilient manner. Household, industrial capital, shared infrastructure, and common environmental stocks have a physical cost of maintaining and replacing. A low surplus society which is incapable of generating a net product or economic surplus above the cost of maintaining itself or keeping its population from starving is not going to be able to sustainably fund such advanced projects. So understanding the environment requires interacting with the environment and shaping it in a manner which maximizes our ability for future understanding.

nine_k 5y ago
In the same vein, if you want to help the poor and the weak, be rich and mighty — else you won't have the resourced to share with the poor, or strength to help the weak.
- danybittel 5y ago
  The poor need an environment they can thrive in, not handout from the rich.
  - asjfkdldlg 5y ago
    > The poor need an environment they can thrive in, not handout from the rich. Well, they need someone rich and mighty to create this environment they can thrive in - poor people usually don't hire employees.
    - discreteevent 5y ago
      Hiring employees is not the only way to create an environment you can thrive in. There are plenty of examples in all cultures (maybe not the US?) of co-operative arrangements that were successful.
      - lordloki 5y ago
        Without benefactors providing large amounts of capital how would we advance our knowledge and thought? Without some form of inequality of wealth we would never have had the enlightenment, industrial revolution, and health systems that we have today. The poor today are better off in almost every measure than the poor of 300 years ago. Heck, the poor today are better off than the wealthy of 300 years ago. This is all due to large amounts of capital being invested or donated into science and technology. To an extent wealth inequality is a necessary evil. It's certainly exceeded it's beneficial point at the moment, but that doesn't mean we should throw capitalism away, we only need to rein it in some.
        traverseda 5y ago
        >Without benefactors providing large amounts of capital how would we advance our knowledge and thought? I mean if I didn't have to worry about money I'd probably devote my life to some interesting distributed operating-system problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc I think that the people who are already creating stuff would continue to create stuff, just exactly what they create would change. I'm less worried about who would advance our knowledge and thought and more worried about who would manage the garbage or grow the food.
    - 5y ago
- markzzerella 5y ago
  Put on your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others.

nine_k 5y ago

In the same vein, if you want to help the poor and the weak, be rich and mighty — else you won't have the resourced to share with the poor, or strength to help the weak.

danybittel 5y ago
The poor need an environment they can thrive in, not handout from the rich.
- asjfkdldlg 5y ago
  > The poor need an environment they can thrive in, not handout from the rich. Well, they need someone rich and mighty to create this environment they can thrive in - poor people usually don't hire employees.
  - discreteevent 5y ago
    Hiring employees is not the only way to create an environment you can thrive in. There are plenty of examples in all cultures (maybe not the US?) of co-operative arrangements that were successful.
    - lordloki 5y ago
      Without benefactors providing large amounts of capital how would we advance our knowledge and thought? Without some form of inequality of wealth we would never have had the enlightenment, industrial revolution, and health systems that we have today. The poor today are better off in almost every measure than the poor of 300 years ago. Heck, the poor today are better off than the wealthy of 300 years ago. This is all due to large amounts of capital being invested or donated into science and technology. To an extent wealth inequality is a necessary evil. It's certainly exceeded it's beneficial point at the moment, but that doesn't mean we should throw capitalism away, we only need to rein it in some.
      - traverseda 5y ago
        >Without benefactors providing large amounts of capital how would we advance our knowledge and thought? I mean if I didn't have to worry about money I'd probably devote my life to some interesting distributed operating-system problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc I think that the people who are already creating stuff would continue to create stuff, just exactly what they create would change. I'm less worried about who would advance our knowledge and thought and more worried about who would manage the garbage or grow the food.
  - 5y ago
markzzerella 5y ago
Put on your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others.