8 ms·

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison withou

by genmud 5y ago

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist at that time and place, not because you belong there or have a right to be there, but because nobody has decided you shouldn't." I have always kept that in the back of my mind when traveling, even in places that I would consider first-world. It is certainly something that I would keep in the forefront of my mind if I lived or worked in a place like CN. It is always interesting to watch people who push the boundary, become emboldened and forget that they aren't the ones making the decision for their fates. I have always thought of CN as one of those countries that wants all the benefits of a western society, with expectations that people will conform, with an implicit "or else".

kangaroozach 5y ago
Reminds me of Danny Fenster who is a US journalist being held in Myanmar. His family went many weeks without any sign that he was even alive an the US government seems utterly powerless, or disinterested in flexing their power. He is totally at the mercy of a rogue newly installed government.
wsc981 5y ago
Somewhat related, this is an interesting story of the escape of a Western guy with his Chinese wife and child from China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA He did have to escape on short notice after he shared or said something on his YouTube channel that offended the Chinese government (IIRC).
- tjpnz 5y ago
  Similar thing happened with ADVChina. He had spent years trying to portray the positive aspects of Chinese society but was increasingly targeted by police. He ended up leaving after the harassment became too much.
  - pas 5y ago
    They spent years biking together in China. Their Instagram and YT is very interesting (and the comments are full of blind China apologists).
ca01an 5y ago
Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  But not because some government official suddenly decided they should. In the USA, the rules are known well in advance. There might be questionable rules, but POTUS cannot decree a rule into existence and put a bag over your head an hour later.
  - CJefferson 5y ago
    People who spent years in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base (or are still there, after 20 years, without being charged) might disagree with you on that.
    - MattGaiser 5y ago
      > In the USA What the US does to non-citizens outside the USA is a messy area. Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear.
      - Jochim 5y ago
        On an individual basis the rules are often vague and selectively enforced. As a collective institution there was the whole Edward Snowden thing where he pointed out that the NSA had definitely not been following those rules and no one who knew what they were doing seemed particularly keen on stopping them.
        InspiredIdiot 5y ago
        That is a big problem but kindof a separate issue. He may have been targeted because he was critical of the government but it's really hard to argue that he didn't do anything against the law. Maybe he should have whistleblower protection but his case isn't as simple as persecution solely for being critical of the government which is what this thread seems to be about.
Jochim 5y ago
It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied. In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong. There was a rather notable protest movement just last year that had it's roots in a group of people not being allowed to freely exist in the same way as the rest of society.
- owlmirror 5y ago
  >In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong. Does this go beyond anecdotes and are that quantifiable occurrences that are disproportionally happening in the west vs. other countries? Because I know of many contrary anecdotes of Non-European people, living very safely and without such concerns in western countries. In my opinion I'd tend say that modern western societies are the most safe and welcoming societies for foreigners, were you face the least amount of discrimination as an outsider.
  - frollo 5y ago
    > In my opinion I'd tend say that modern western societies are the most safe and welcoming societies for foreigners, were you face the least amount of discrimination as an outsider. I think it depends on so many factors that you shouldn't make a blanket statement in any direction. You can say both things on different areas of the same city.
  - Jochim 5y ago
    My point wasn't that these things happen disproportionately in the west. It was that to imply, as the GP did, that these issues do not exist or are not problems in the west is both incorrect and damaging. Corruption is a pretty good example. When it occurs non-western country it's called out and criticised but when speaking about western countries we dress it up in fancy clothes. In the U.S. it's "Lobbying", in the UK it's "Cronyism" or "Chumocracy". By redefining the terms, corruption becomes something that only happens elsewhere, in less "civilised" places, and not something that has to be dealt with at home. Labour could be another, there's a huge lack of perspective in discussions around foreign labour standards where we will condemn the working conditions in China or India while ignoring the fact that these people are experiencing those conditions working in the factories of some of the wealthiest companies in the west.

by genmud 5y ago

kangaroozach 5y ago

Reminds me of Danny Fenster who is a US journalist being held in Myanmar. His family went many weeks without any sign that he was even alive an the US government seems utterly powerless, or disinterested in flexing their power. He is totally at the mercy of a rogue newly installed government.

wsc981 5y ago

Somewhat related, this is an interesting story of the escape of a Western guy with his Chinese wife and child from China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA He did have to escape on short notice after he shared or said something on his YouTube channel that offended the Chinese government (IIRC).

tjpnz 5y ago
Similar thing happened with ADVChina. He had spent years trying to portray the positive aspects of Chinese society but was increasingly targeted by police. He ended up leaving after the harassment became too much.
- pas 5y ago
  They spent years biking together in China. Their Instagram and YT is very interesting (and the comments are full of blind China apologists).

ca01an 5y ago

Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China

MattGaiser 5y ago
But not because some government official suddenly decided they should. In the USA, the rules are known well in advance. There might be questionable rules, but POTUS cannot decree a rule into existence and put a bag over your head an hour later.
- CJefferson 5y ago
  People who spent years in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base (or are still there, after 20 years, without being charged) might disagree with you on that.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    > In the USA What the US does to non-citizens outside the USA is a messy area. Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear.
    - Jochim 5y ago
      On an individual basis the rules are often vague and selectively enforced. As a collective institution there was the whole Edward Snowden thing where he pointed out that the NSA had definitely not been following those rules and no one who knew what they were doing seemed particularly keen on stopping them.
      - InspiredIdiot 5y ago
        That is a big problem but kindof a separate issue. He may have been targeted because he was critical of the government but it's really hard to argue that he didn't do anything against the law. Maybe he should have whistleblower protection but his case isn't as simple as persecution solely for being critical of the government which is what this thread seems to be about.

Jochim 5y ago

It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied. In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong. There was a rather notable protest movement just last year that had it's roots in a group of people not being allowed to freely exist in the same way as the rest of society.

owlmirror 5y ago
>In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong. Does this go beyond anecdotes and are that quantifiable occurrences that are disproportionally happening in the west vs. other countries? Because I know of many contrary anecdotes of Non-European people, living very safely and without such concerns in western countries. In my opinion I'd tend say that modern western societies are the most safe and welcoming societies for foreigners, were you face the least amount of discrimination as an outsider.
- frollo 5y ago
  > In my opinion I'd tend say that modern western societies are the most safe and welcoming societies for foreigners, were you face the least amount of discrimination as an outsider. I think it depends on so many factors that you shouldn't make a blanket statement in any direction. You can say both things on different areas of the same city.
- Jochim 5y ago
  My point wasn't that these things happen disproportionately in the west. It was that to imply, as the GP did, that these issues do not exist or are not problems in the west is both incorrect and damaging. Corruption is a pretty good example. When it occurs non-western country it's called out and criticised but when speaking about western countries we dress it up in fancy clothes. In the U.S. it's "Lobbying", in the UK it's "Cronyism" or "Chumocracy". By redefining the terms, corruption becomes something that only happens elsewhere, in less "civilised" places, and not something that has to be dealt with at home. Labour could be another, there's a huge lack of perspective in discussions around foreign labour standards where we will condemn the working conditions in China or India while ignoring the fact that these people are experiencing those conditions working in the factories of some of the wealthiest companies in the west.