17 ms·

What really happened to Jack Ma?

238 points by Invictus0 5y ago

redis_mlc 5y ago
- note that the official investigation meeting (before he disappeared for 3 months) had state officials from 4 different state departments in one meeting, meaning it was highly choreographed by the CCP - Xi announced more hands-on CCP oversight for all companies in 2020 after a few decades of Wild West-style capitalism. The point of temporary capitalism was to grow the Chinese economy to a Western standard and avoid Soviet-style economic stagnation, which ultimately made the USSR non-viable. Then control and suppress the economoy going forward. - Xi had himself declared dictator for life, well, to be exactly that. He doesn't need industry titans distracting the population, or leaving him in the shade. There can be only one.
- aero-glide2 5y ago
  > Xi announced more hands-on CCP oversight for all companies in 2020 after a few decades of Wild West-style capitalism. I don't understand why this considered by some communists as "impure". The communist manifesto does talk about capitalism first and then use the generated wealth for communism.
  - mr_toad 5y ago
    What does communism have to do with the Chinese Communist Party?
    - smcl 5y ago
      Edit: Removed this. I was agreeing with parent (CCP != communist), but don’t wanna encourage more replies like the one I got
      - redis_mlc 5y ago
        > - the Chinese Communist Party is not communist You're just playing with words. - the CCP is communist compared to the Nationaists - Mao looked up to Stalin and was an enemy of the US - the CCP is a one-party totalitarian state just like the USSR, where the societal structure was reshaped, killing millions in the process If you mean that it's not a workers' paradise, communism never is, except for the top officials. The CCP has all the worst traits of communism, therefore it is. A third (400 million) of mainland Chinese people are struggling financially today, and hospital care is cash-in-advance for non-CCP patients. So China doesn't even have the socialist health care available to most Western countries.
      - the_third_wave 5y ago
        Assuming that failed communist states "are not communist" is is a dangerous fallacy which keeps alive the idea that "Communism works but has never been tried in real life". The CCP is a communist party in one of the end stages of the ideology just like the Soviet communist party was a communist party in one of its end stages, just like all the other failed communist states were led by communist parties in their end stages. The problem lies with the ideology, not with the implementation thereof.
        smcl 5y ago
        You're putting words in my mouth to provoke an argument, don't do that. There are plenty of very enthusiastic supporters of communism elsewhere who will be happy to have that discussion with you, I specifically said I didn't want to encourage it here.
        the_third_wave 5y ago
        There are plenty of very enthusiastic supporters of national socialism who will be happy to have a discussion on that subject yet we do not avoid pointing out the failure of the doctrine and teach our children about the resulting carnage. The same standard should be used when discussing communism no matter how many very enthusiastic supporters it has.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        smcl 5y ago
        What I’m saying is - you’re clearly desperate for a fight with someone. You can definitely find one somewhere, but not here no matter how edgy or provocative you are.
        bzzzt 5y ago
        I'm wondering what the end state of our democratic capitalistic states will be...
  - lucian1900 5y ago
    It’s not even a novel concept. The USSR instituted the NEP to attract foreign investment so it could develop after being invaded during WW1. Both China and Vietnam have limited forms of capitalism in order to not be blockaded and be allowed to develop.
stanrivers 5y ago
This is an interesting read - I didn’t know how unsubstantiated a lot of the “sightings” of Jack were… was dumb of him to say what he did, but doesn’t warrant the apparent mistreatment
- kangaroozach 5y ago
  I fault the press for letting this slide. Most people just read headlines and figured he was alright and their theories were proven false. The press should have for skepticism because they act as the middle layer between the public and the reality of what is going on. They have a responsibility to get us the relevant facts. These days seems like the press has sold out and seems like they are in someone’s pocket…
  - pydry 5y ago
    Nobody really does investigative journalism any more. It's expensive and has an uncertain payoff. In the face of declining ad revenue media organizations are much more keen on predictable revenue streams.
    - rwmj 5y ago
      Private Eye does (in the UK, not China), but they have a very popular best-selling paper magazine.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    > They have a responsibility to get us the relevant facts. >These days seems like the press has sold out and seems like they are in someone’s pocket… We do not want to compensate journalists, and there seems to be quite some risk in doing investigative journalism in China, so I would not expect someone to donate their life as the risk reward ratio is out of whack.
    - squiggleblaz 5y ago
      > We do not want to compensate journalists, We barely have the choice to compensate journalists. For them to do their jobs effectively, they need to group together. But the people who control the groupings of journalists take active steps to cultivate a feeling of distrust and hostility between the would-be compensators and the controllers of the groups. Are there any news websites that make you feel better and more informed after you've visited them? It always seems like you should feel grateful they haven't started tracking you, got you an expensive and hard to cancel subscription and like your life will be desperately uncertain if you decide to go make a cup of coffee. It's almost impossible to spend nothing but a couple of dollars and some attention in exchange for quality journalism like it was just a few years ago. There is one party who controls the interaction between journalists and the public, and prior to casting aspersions on the general public you need to consider their actions.
syshum 5y ago
>>>“I am puzzled. I don’t know why the press is not more curious about these very curious little stray sightings and a short video clip and nobody speaking for attribution.” Come one, are you really puzzled..... Follow the Money... US Media (and they are Media not journalists) is a for-profit business tied to entertainment, we have seen all manner of entertainment from movies to sports bow to the directives of China. Why does anyone believe the "news" media would be any different than these other entertainment outlets?
- kangaroozach 5y ago
  But even the non-MSM / alternate online news has let this one slide.
  - 3np 5y ago
    I imagine that this is because those non-Chinese outlets that vilify China bundle the CCP, Chinese businesses and Chinese powerful individuals into the same entity, all with Xi on top. Presenting this as anything but an "internal conflict" doesn't fit their narrative and agenda and therefore it isn't interesting.
genmud 5y ago
One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist at that time and place, not because you belong there or have a right to be there, but because nobody has decided you shouldn't." I have always kept that in the back of my mind when traveling, even in places that I would consider first-world. It is certainly something that I would keep in the forefront of my mind if I lived or worked in a place like CN. It is always interesting to watch people who push the boundary, become emboldened and forget that they aren't the ones making the decision for their fates. I have always thought of CN as one of those countries that wants all the benefits of a western society, with expectations that people will conform, with an implicit "or else".
- kangaroozach 5y ago
  Reminds me of Danny Fenster who is a US journalist being held in Myanmar. His family went many weeks without any sign that he was even alive an the US government seems utterly powerless, or disinterested in flexing their power. He is totally at the mercy of a rogue newly installed government.
- wsc981 5y ago
  Somewhat related, this is an interesting story of the escape of a Western guy with his Chinese wife and child from China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA He did have to escape on short notice after he shared or said something on his YouTube channel that offended the Chinese government (IIRC).
  - tjpnz 5y ago
    Similar thing happened with ADVChina. He had spent years trying to portray the positive aspects of Chinese society but was increasingly targeted by police. He ended up leaving after the harassment became too much.
baybal2 5y ago
It's very likely he can be detained, and let go out with some minders. Just sending him to Gulag would be too much of a bombshell even today, so they perpetuate his "semi-imprisonment" just to not let out people thoughts that capitalism is done for in China.
- pjerem 5y ago
  > It's very likely he can be detained, and let go out with some minders. Yes but there is the (pretty high, tbh) risk that he would like to leave china as soon as possible and if it happens, he would be able to talk, and be listened.
dehrmann 5y ago
Interesting that this bubbled up this week--China is cracking down on Didi over "security concerns" within a week of it IPOing on a US exchange. This should be pretty embarrassing, so if Didi had legitimate security issues, the CCP would have kept it quiet and gotten it fixed quietly. I think this is to send a message, but I'm not sure to whom.
- mr_toad 5y ago
  > I think this is to send a message, but I'm not sure to whom. Could just be a general message to anyone who doesn’t scratch the right backs.
worker767424 5y ago
I hope Xi has a lovely trip to The Hague one of these days.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological or nationalistic flamewar. No, we don't care about Xi [1]. We just care about not having tedious and nasty HN threads, which is what comments like this point to. Plesae don't do that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html [1] and if you worry that we may secretly be communist agents please see this mini-FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26652363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26652363 and the associated "algorithm": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26637365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26637365
  - blablablerg 5y ago
    Well Xi is responsible for a lot of bad things, so someone wishing him a trip to the Hague is far from "generic ideological and nationalistic flamewar" but a fair response to what is happening to people that Xi doesn't like. The only one that is starting the flamewar is you.
    - dang 5y ago
      It was cheap internet flamebait that guaranteed a degraded discussion. If people have substantive comments to make about such things, they need to clear a much higher bar. Moreover they need to do it in a way that avoids generic tangents, and the GP was a classic generic tangent, sucking the thread into the nearest black hole: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20black%20hole&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20discussion%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
  - 5y ago
boyka 5y ago
Another (more) interesting question would be: What is Jack Ma actually doing with all the money from private loans against his shares? Buying European real estate? We probably will know eventually if $BABA keeps its downward trend and margin calls cannot be fulfilled.
- pavlov 5y ago
  AFAIK it’s usual practice for billionaire founders to fund their lifestyles with loans taken against their stock. If they sold stock, they’d incur large taxes. A loan avoids that.
  - setr 5y ago
    Wouldn’t they just end up selling the stock to pay the loans, and pay taxes then? It seems more reasonable that they’re betting on the stock values increasing more than the loan interest rate
    - regularfry 5y ago
      The difference is "end up". They can (if appropriate, and if they can't cover it elsewhere) sell small amounts to cover the interest on the loan, rather than the large amount of the principal. At the end of the loan term the usual thing would be to roll it into another loan. The lender wants that stream of interest payments. The only time they care about the full amount is if they want (or need) to call in the loan, which, in the ideal situation from their perspective, never happens. So the borrower should never need to sell enough of the stock to seriously affect the price, and the tax is only payable on a small number, not a big one.
      - np_tedious 5y ago
        If you can keep this up until you die, your heirs may benefit from what's called "step up in basis" on the shares. Thus a lot of capital gains tax is avoided.
    - Traster 5y ago
Traster 5y ago
I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's pretty clear - Ma is being held out of the way whilst this happens. There's no point in causing drama whist they're doing this, just hold him out of the way and in about 18 months there'll be nothing for him to come back to. At that point they'll no longer need him, all the businesses will be managed by cronies of the state. So what happens when they no longer need him? If he's lucky they'll let him manage some tiny sliver of his former empire, but I can't imagine them taking the risk of him fleeing and becoming a powerful critic, so I guess most likely thing to do is trump up charges of corruption and prosecute him.
- Bojui 5y ago
  What happens if Xi kicks the can tomorrow? How smooth is the transition going to be? China is so massive I cant understand how they dont have multiple power centers bumping into each other all the time.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    Xi has been in power for under a decade, and there likely are many competing power struggles that take place under him.
  - fmajid 5y ago
    Xi wants no waves for the CCP 100th Anniversary celebrations and a few other key milestones this year. That’s why even the wolf warriors are being muzzled at the moment.
  - TwoFerMaggie 5y ago
    Well last time there was a "successor problem" China went through a decade-long political and economic turmoil that was the Cultural Revolution. Having experienced that first hand, Deng implemented the term limit, so that there won't be a position of absolute power for the rest of one's life (it's just too much a temptation and thus recipe for chaos every 20-30 years or so). Now that the term limit is gone, I don't think the transition would be as smooth as the past two decades.
scandox 5y ago
The very excellent effect of Ma's downfall is that it will remind wealthy people in the West that democracy has its good points. Much easier to sympathize with the expropriation of a Billionaire than some schlub from the middle of nowhere.
- hulitu 5y ago
  > The very excellent effect of Ma's downfall is that it will remind wealthy people in the West that democracy has its good points. Yes, like protecting rich criminals. > Much easier to sympathize with the expropriation of a Billionaire than some schlub from the middle of nowhere. Some people never have enough. It is good that sometimes they are shown that limits exist.
  - anm89 5y ago
    Nice endorsement of kidnapping and violence against people who have "too much". Fits every criteria of fascism and yet I bet you don't wear that label outwardly.
    - lucian1900 5y ago
      Fascism is a tool of the rich to use those fallen from (some amount of) grace against organised labour that might otherwise mount a successful revolution. There’s a reason the first targets have always been communists and labour organisers, not industry owners. Look at what fascists do, not at what they say.
      - anm89 5y ago
        I have no evidence either way of what this person does and they verbally advocate for violence against people they don't like to achieve political ends. So I'm going to stick with them seeming pretty facistic.
        lucian1900 5y ago
        Violence isn’t inherently fascist. Capitalism uses violence against the working class to maintain profits for the owning class. Revolutions of the working class are violent, yet they end the former violence and exploitation. Fascism is violence to protect the owning class from a revolution by the working class. Suppression of capitalists after a working class revolution is also violence to prevent them from regaining power to yet again use violence to exploit the working class. Violence is just one way to exert power.
throwaway4good 5y ago
How different societies handle billionaires with a mid-life crisis: China: Cool it, buddy. US: Outer space? Sure thing. Here is a couple of billions from our infrastructure program.
cik 5y ago
Colour me paranoid.. but I think I'm a realist. From China's point of view, the creation (and concentration) of (large amounts) of wealth in the hands of individuals, leads to the concentration of power. That power in turn, becomes a threat to the current approach of the CCP, and the messages being shared with society. In 2019, China began working with PWC in an effort to repatriate, or at least dual-list IPOs, in either Shanghai (Star) or Hong Kong. DIDI publicly want against that goal - by single-listing on the Nasdaq. By accruing a massive amount of wealth, and freedoms, Ma began to become a thorn in the side of the CCP. It's one thing to have (direct) access to finances, it's another to disparage the state-run financial system. But it's still another to control purchase platforms, chat platforms, and the next-generation of educated, technology executives. This is where he was. Ma has been silenced, the threat has been eliminated. The CCP has proven, once again that they are adept at addressing both the internal and external threat to their perceived stability.
- MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
  This is exactly right. Same reason they shut down LGBTQ chat rooms. It will be very interesting to watch the trajectory of China vs the western model.
  - skrebbel 5y ago
    Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma? EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban and Xi think that that this helps them stay in power? How? Why?
    - ailun 5y ago
      LGBTQ as a movement is seen as a western influence. It’s funny that I saw your comment, earlier today I read a machine-translated version of this article(1) that was shared by a Wechat contact. I would say this attitude is fairly common among people 40+ in China. Warning if you don’t want to get angry: it is full of repulsive views. (1) https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw
yorwba 5y ago
> There are one billion smartphones in China today. Everyone knows what Jack Ma looks like. Given his notoriety, and the intense vested interest of the financial world in his status and well-being, if he is at liberty today, how could it be that there are no pictures of him in circulation? This point would be better if it could be demonstrated by showing that there were a lot of ordinary people taking pictures of Ma in public all the way through October 2020 and then that suddenly stopped. So I decided to check for myself and searched for 马云偶遇 on DDG. First result was this article about a woman's selfie with him going viral, published on June 2, 2021: https://new.qq.com/omn/20210602/20210602A02NNM00.html https://new.qq.com/omn/20210602/20210602A02NNM00.html If he'd known about this, there are many ways the author could've attacked its credibility (e.g. maybe it's a deepfake or an old picture) but given that he doesn't mention it, I conclude that he didn't do enough research and his list of sightings is incomplete. EDIT: Yep, it's an old picture, also appears in this Zhihu post from two years ago: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/57836061 https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/57836061 EDIT 2: Also a few semi-recent results on Weibo: https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=100103type%3D1%26q%3D%E9%A9%AC%E4%BA%91%20%E5%81%B6%E9%81%87 https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=100103type%3D1%26q%3D%... I'm too lazy to check how many of them are reposts of old pictures.
- ricardobeat 5y ago
  > given that he doesn't mention it, I conclude that he didn't do enough research > I'm too lazy to check how many of them are reposts of old pictures You just proved his point - plenty of images available from 2019 and earlier. Plus he used to have flashy appearances that would be reported on international media every once in a while - the lack of those alone tells us something has changed drastically.
kevin_young 5y ago
imagine how much jacks ass must be gaping after a few months in chinese prison haha
- ahtihn 5y ago
  Prison rape jokes. Haha. Very funny.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    And he created his account for this ! What a life ...
  - kevin_young 5y ago
    prisoners dont deserve punishment?
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  Take this somewhere else, please.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
If a rumor of you playing golf causes you to lose billions in net worth, would you appear in public? Probably not unless a major world leader asked you to do some reason.
627467 5y ago
"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"
ipausanius 5y ago
Then in May, it was reported that Jack Ma had actually visited Alibaba headquarters for an employee social event. I took this at face value and asked my wife (Chinese) what her opinions were on Ma having not been seen in public for so long. Within a couple of minutes she brought up some Chinese social media posts: video: https://open.163.com/newview/movie/free?pid=TG921CJDP&mid=TG921CJEF https://open.163.com/newview/movie/free?pid=TG921CJDP&mid=TG... that do indeed show Ma giving a speech. Is this a case of the linked article's author not being aware of Chinese social media?
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  I do think the author's argument "There are one billion smartphones in China today" pretty weak. How many smartphone users publish their photos on open social media? Most people probably took pictures and shared them on WeChat with their friends and relatives.
- native_samples 5y ago
  Is there anywhere in that video or web page that has a date?
  - eric-hu 5y ago
    The video has overlay text saying it's May 10th, which seems to be a reference to this event: https://www.reuters.com/technology/jack-ma-makes-rare-visit-alibaba-headquarters-hangzhou-2021-05-10/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/jack-ma-makes-rare-visit-... The project screen behind him in the video looks like it says Aliday 2021 at the top, and the 20 second video clip has subtitles that seem to match what he's saying. The content of what he's saying seems generic, something like "Ali needs to have a singular vision." I _guess_ it could be real. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a deepfake.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      Thanks. I can't read Chinese, is it the 5<something>10<something> at the start? That would make sense. I very much doubt it's DeepFaked. Why bother? If the CCP were holding Ma and wanted him to make a generic video like that for putting up appearances I'm sure they have ways to make him do that. I suspect the OP is correct and it's simply that the author of the article doesn't know how to search Chinese social media.
whois_john_galt 5y ago
Who is John Galt?
hkai 5y ago
Admit it, many Americans want something like this to happen to Musk and Zuck.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  I think Americans that don’t support Zuckerberg or Musk would be concerned if they were house arrested after criticizing the current administration.
- noone321 5y ago
  I wish we still had real investigative journalists. If you're bored sometime, go through the Deng/Murdoch divorce papers and look at how the Murdochs claim Deng altered Lachlan, Rupert and James' business practices to benefit the Chinese government. From the outside, it sounds like certain SV companies are behaving in the exact same way. But I guess we won't know until someone leaks, huh?
mythrwy 5y ago
Charlie Munger has an interesting take on Ma. I don't know exactly what to make of this. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/berkshires-charlie-munger-says-china-right-to-clip-jack-mas-wings/articleshow/83976378.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/ber...
maguay 5y ago
"If Jeff Bezos disappeared, and there was a question that he was in trouble with the US government, I think the press would be all over this. In this case, nobody seems to be too curious about it," via [an interview](https://racket.com/stu/rt6Yh https://racket.com/stu/rt6Yh) with the George Calhoun, the author of this piece. That really may be what's most noteworthy about this case—it feels like it should be a bigger deal, and so it's hard not to speculate about it.

238 points by Invictus0 5y ago

- note that the official investigation meeting (before he disappeared for 3 months) had state officials from 4 different state departments in one meeting, meaning it was highly choreographed by the CCP - Xi announced more hands-on CCP oversight for all companies in 2020 after a few decades of Wild West-style capitalism. The point of temporary capitalism was to grow the Chinese economy to a Western standard and avoid Soviet-style economic stagnation, which ultimately made the USSR non-viable. Then control and suppress the economoy going forward. - Xi had himself declared dictator for life, well, to be exactly that. He doesn't need industry titans distracting the population, or leaving him in the shade. There can be only one.

aero-glide2 5y ago
> Xi announced more hands-on CCP oversight for all companies in 2020 after a few decades of Wild West-style capitalism. I don't understand why this considered by some communists as "impure". The communist manifesto does talk about capitalism first and then use the generated wealth for communism.
- mr_toad 5y ago
  What does communism have to do with the Chinese Communist Party?
  - smcl 5y ago
    Edit: Removed this. I was agreeing with parent (CCP != communist), but don’t wanna encourage more replies like the one I got
    - redis_mlc 5y ago
      > - the Chinese Communist Party is not communist You're just playing with words. - the CCP is communist compared to the Nationaists - Mao looked up to Stalin and was an enemy of the US - the CCP is a one-party totalitarian state just like the USSR, where the societal structure was reshaped, killing millions in the process If you mean that it's not a workers' paradise, communism never is, except for the top officials. The CCP has all the worst traits of communism, therefore it is. A third (400 million) of mainland Chinese people are struggling financially today, and hospital care is cash-in-advance for non-CCP patients. So China doesn't even have the socialist health care available to most Western countries.
    - the_third_wave 5y ago
      Assuming that failed communist states "are not communist" is is a dangerous fallacy which keeps alive the idea that "Communism works but has never been tried in real life". The CCP is a communist party in one of the end stages of the ideology just like the Soviet communist party was a communist party in one of its end stages, just like all the other failed communist states were led by communist parties in their end stages. The problem lies with the ideology, not with the implementation thereof.
      - smcl 5y ago
        You're putting words in my mouth to provoke an argument, don't do that. There are plenty of very enthusiastic supporters of communism elsewhere who will be happy to have that discussion with you, I specifically said I didn't want to encourage it here.
        the_third_wave 5y ago
        There are plenty of very enthusiastic supporters of national socialism who will be happy to have a discussion on that subject yet we do not avoid pointing out the failure of the doctrine and teach our children about the resulting carnage. The same standard should be used when discussing communism no matter how many very enthusiastic supporters it has.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        smcl 5y ago
        What I’m saying is - you’re clearly desperate for a fight with someone. You can definitely find one somewhere, but not here no matter how edgy or provocative you are.
      - bzzzt 5y ago
        I'm wondering what the end state of our democratic capitalistic states will be...
- lucian1900 5y ago
  It’s not even a novel concept. The USSR instituted the NEP to attract foreign investment so it could develop after being invaded during WW1. Both China and Vietnam have limited forms of capitalism in order to not be blockaded and be allowed to develop.

stanrivers 5y ago

This is an interesting read - I didn’t know how unsubstantiated a lot of the “sightings” of Jack were… was dumb of him to say what he did, but doesn’t warrant the apparent mistreatment

kangaroozach 5y ago
I fault the press for letting this slide. Most people just read headlines and figured he was alright and their theories were proven false. The press should have for skepticism because they act as the middle layer between the public and the reality of what is going on. They have a responsibility to get us the relevant facts. These days seems like the press has sold out and seems like they are in someone’s pocket…
- pydry 5y ago
  Nobody really does investigative journalism any more. It's expensive and has an uncertain payoff. In the face of declining ad revenue media organizations are much more keen on predictable revenue streams.
  - rwmj 5y ago
    Private Eye does (in the UK, not China), but they have a very popular best-selling paper magazine.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > They have a responsibility to get us the relevant facts. >These days seems like the press has sold out and seems like they are in someone’s pocket… We do not want to compensate journalists, and there seems to be quite some risk in doing investigative journalism in China, so I would not expect someone to donate their life as the risk reward ratio is out of whack.
  - squiggleblaz 5y ago
    > We do not want to compensate journalists, We barely have the choice to compensate journalists. For them to do their jobs effectively, they need to group together. But the people who control the groupings of journalists take active steps to cultivate a feeling of distrust and hostility between the would-be compensators and the controllers of the groups. Are there any news websites that make you feel better and more informed after you've visited them? It always seems like you should feel grateful they haven't started tracking you, got you an expensive and hard to cancel subscription and like your life will be desperately uncertain if you decide to go make a cup of coffee. It's almost impossible to spend nothing but a couple of dollars and some attention in exchange for quality journalism like it was just a few years ago. There is one party who controls the interaction between journalists and the public, and prior to casting aspersions on the general public you need to consider their actions.

syshum 5y ago

>>>“I am puzzled. I don’t know why the press is not more curious about these very curious little stray sightings and a short video clip and nobody speaking for attribution.” Come one, are you really puzzled..... Follow the Money... US Media (and they are Media not journalists) is a for-profit business tied to entertainment, we have seen all manner of entertainment from movies to sports bow to the directives of China. Why does anyone believe the "news" media would be any different than these other entertainment outlets?

kangaroozach 5y ago
But even the non-MSM / alternate online news has let this one slide.
- 3np 5y ago
  I imagine that this is because those non-Chinese outlets that vilify China bundle the CCP, Chinese businesses and Chinese powerful individuals into the same entity, all with Xi on top. Presenting this as anything but an "internal conflict" doesn't fit their narrative and agenda and therefore it isn't interesting.

genmud 5y ago

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist at that time and place, not because you belong there or have a right to be there, but because nobody has decided you shouldn't." I have always kept that in the back of my mind when traveling, even in places that I would consider first-world. It is certainly something that I would keep in the forefront of my mind if I lived or worked in a place like CN. It is always interesting to watch people who push the boundary, become emboldened and forget that they aren't the ones making the decision for their fates. I have always thought of CN as one of those countries that wants all the benefits of a western society, with expectations that people will conform, with an implicit "or else".

kangaroozach 5y ago
Reminds me of Danny Fenster who is a US journalist being held in Myanmar. His family went many weeks without any sign that he was even alive an the US government seems utterly powerless, or disinterested in flexing their power. He is totally at the mercy of a rogue newly installed government.
wsc981 5y ago
Somewhat related, this is an interesting story of the escape of a Western guy with his Chinese wife and child from China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA He did have to escape on short notice after he shared or said something on his YouTube channel that offended the Chinese government (IIRC).
- tjpnz 5y ago
  Similar thing happened with ADVChina. He had spent years trying to portray the positive aspects of Chinese society but was increasingly targeted by police. He ended up leaving after the harassment became too much.

baybal2 5y ago

It's very likely he can be detained, and let go out with some minders. Just sending him to Gulag would be too much of a bombshell even today, so they perpetuate his "semi-imprisonment" just to not let out people thoughts that capitalism is done for in China.

pjerem 5y ago
> It's very likely he can be detained, and let go out with some minders. Yes but there is the (pretty high, tbh) risk that he would like to leave china as soon as possible and if it happens, he would be able to talk, and be listened.

dehrmann 5y ago

Interesting that this bubbled up this week--China is cracking down on Didi over "security concerns" within a week of it IPOing on a US exchange. This should be pretty embarrassing, so if Didi had legitimate security issues, the CCP would have kept it quiet and gotten it fixed quietly. I think this is to send a message, but I'm not sure to whom.

mr_toad 5y ago
> I think this is to send a message, but I'm not sure to whom. Could just be a general message to anyone who doesn’t scratch the right backs.

worker767424 5y ago

I hope Xi has a lovely trip to The Hague one of these days.

dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological or nationalistic flamewar. No, we don't care about Xi [1]. We just care about not having tedious and nasty HN threads, which is what comments like this point to. Plesae don't do that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html [1] and if you worry that we may secretly be communist agents please see this mini-FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26652363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26652363 and the associated "algorithm": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26637365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26637365
- blablablerg 5y ago
  Well Xi is responsible for a lot of bad things, so someone wishing him a trip to the Hague is far from "generic ideological and nationalistic flamewar" but a fair response to what is happening to people that Xi doesn't like. The only one that is starting the flamewar is you.
  - dang 5y ago
    It was cheap internet flamebait that guaranteed a degraded discussion. If people have substantive comments to make about such things, they need to clear a much higher bar. Moreover they need to do it in a way that avoids generic tangents, and the GP was a classic generic tangent, sucking the thread into the nearest black hole: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20black%20hole&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20discussion%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
- 5y ago

boyka 5y ago

Another (more) interesting question would be: What is Jack Ma actually doing with all the money from private loans against his shares? Buying European real estate? We probably will know eventually if $BABA keeps its downward trend and margin calls cannot be fulfilled.

pavlov 5y ago
AFAIK it’s usual practice for billionaire founders to fund their lifestyles with loans taken against their stock. If they sold stock, they’d incur large taxes. A loan avoids that.
- setr 5y ago
  Wouldn’t they just end up selling the stock to pay the loans, and pay taxes then? It seems more reasonable that they’re betting on the stock values increasing more than the loan interest rate
  - regularfry 5y ago
    The difference is "end up". They can (if appropriate, and if they can't cover it elsewhere) sell small amounts to cover the interest on the loan, rather than the large amount of the principal. At the end of the loan term the usual thing would be to roll it into another loan. The lender wants that stream of interest payments. The only time they care about the full amount is if they want (or need) to call in the loan, which, in the ideal situation from their perspective, never happens. So the borrower should never need to sell enough of the stock to seriously affect the price, and the tax is only payable on a small number, not a big one.
    - np_tedious 5y ago
      If you can keep this up until you die, your heirs may benefit from what's called "step up in basis" on the shares. Thus a lot of capital gains tax is avoided.
  - Traster 5y ago

Traster 5y ago

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's pretty clear - Ma is being held out of the way whilst this happens. There's no point in causing drama whist they're doing this, just hold him out of the way and in about 18 months there'll be nothing for him to come back to. At that point they'll no longer need him, all the businesses will be managed by cronies of the state. So what happens when they no longer need him? If he's lucky they'll let him manage some tiny sliver of his former empire, but I can't imagine them taking the risk of him fleeing and becoming a powerful critic, so I guess most likely thing to do is trump up charges of corruption and prosecute him.

Bojui 5y ago
What happens if Xi kicks the can tomorrow? How smooth is the transition going to be? China is so massive I cant understand how they dont have multiple power centers bumping into each other all the time.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  Xi has been in power for under a decade, and there likely are many competing power struggles that take place under him.
- fmajid 5y ago
  Xi wants no waves for the CCP 100th Anniversary celebrations and a few other key milestones this year. That’s why even the wolf warriors are being muzzled at the moment.
- TwoFerMaggie 5y ago
  Well last time there was a "successor problem" China went through a decade-long political and economic turmoil that was the Cultural Revolution. Having experienced that first hand, Deng implemented the term limit, so that there won't be a position of absolute power for the rest of one's life (it's just too much a temptation and thus recipe for chaos every 20-30 years or so). Now that the term limit is gone, I don't think the transition would be as smooth as the past two decades.

scandox 5y ago

The very excellent effect of Ma's downfall is that it will remind wealthy people in the West that democracy has its good points. Much easier to sympathize with the expropriation of a Billionaire than some schlub from the middle of nowhere.

hulitu 5y ago
> The very excellent effect of Ma's downfall is that it will remind wealthy people in the West that democracy has its good points. Yes, like protecting rich criminals. > Much easier to sympathize with the expropriation of a Billionaire than some schlub from the middle of nowhere. Some people never have enough. It is good that sometimes they are shown that limits exist.
- anm89 5y ago
  Nice endorsement of kidnapping and violence against people who have "too much". Fits every criteria of fascism and yet I bet you don't wear that label outwardly.
  - lucian1900 5y ago
    Fascism is a tool of the rich to use those fallen from (some amount of) grace against organised labour that might otherwise mount a successful revolution. There’s a reason the first targets have always been communists and labour organisers, not industry owners. Look at what fascists do, not at what they say.
    - anm89 5y ago
      I have no evidence either way of what this person does and they verbally advocate for violence against people they don't like to achieve political ends. So I'm going to stick with them seeming pretty facistic.
      - lucian1900 5y ago
        Violence isn’t inherently fascist. Capitalism uses violence against the working class to maintain profits for the owning class. Revolutions of the working class are violent, yet they end the former violence and exploitation. Fascism is violence to protect the owning class from a revolution by the working class. Suppression of capitalists after a working class revolution is also violence to prevent them from regaining power to yet again use violence to exploit the working class. Violence is just one way to exert power.

throwaway4good 5y ago

How different societies handle billionaires with a mid-life crisis: China: Cool it, buddy. US: Outer space? Sure thing. Here is a couple of billions from our infrastructure program.

cik 5y ago

Colour me paranoid.. but I think I'm a realist. From China's point of view, the creation (and concentration) of (large amounts) of wealth in the hands of individuals, leads to the concentration of power. That power in turn, becomes a threat to the current approach of the CCP, and the messages being shared with society. In 2019, China began working with PWC in an effort to repatriate, or at least dual-list IPOs, in either Shanghai (Star) or Hong Kong. DIDI publicly want against that goal - by single-listing on the Nasdaq. By accruing a massive amount of wealth, and freedoms, Ma began to become a thorn in the side of the CCP. It's one thing to have (direct) access to finances, it's another to disparage the state-run financial system. But it's still another to control purchase platforms, chat platforms, and the next-generation of educated, technology executives. This is where he was. Ma has been silenced, the threat has been eliminated. The CCP has proven, once again that they are adept at addressing both the internal and external threat to their perceived stability.

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
This is exactly right. Same reason they shut down LGBTQ chat rooms. It will be very interesting to watch the trajectory of China vs the western model.
- skrebbel 5y ago
  Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma? EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban and Xi think that that this helps them stay in power? How? Why?
  - ailun 5y ago
    LGBTQ as a movement is seen as a western influence. It’s funny that I saw your comment, earlier today I read a machine-translated version of this article(1) that was shared by a Wechat contact. I would say this attitude is fairly common among people 40+ in China. Warning if you don’t want to get angry: it is full of repulsive views. (1) https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw

yorwba 5y ago

> There are one billion smartphones in China today. Everyone knows what Jack Ma looks like. Given his notoriety, and the intense vested interest of the financial world in his status and well-being, if he is at liberty today, how could it be that there are no pictures of him in circulation? This point would be better if it could be demonstrated by showing that there were a lot of ordinary people taking pictures of Ma in public all the way through October 2020 and then that suddenly stopped. So I decided to check for myself and searched for 马云偶遇 on DDG. First result was this article about a woman's selfie with him going viral, published on June 2, 2021: https://new.qq.com/omn/20210602/20210602A02NNM00.html https://new.qq.com/omn/20210602/20210602A02NNM00.html If he'd known about this, there are many ways the author could've attacked its credibility (e.g. maybe it's a deepfake or an old picture) but given that he doesn't mention it, I conclude that he didn't do enough research and his list of sightings is incomplete. EDIT: Yep, it's an old picture, also appears in this Zhihu post from two years ago: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/57836061 https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/57836061 EDIT 2: Also a few semi-recent results on Weibo: https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=100103type%3D1%26q%3D%E9%A9%AC%E4%BA%91%20%E5%81%B6%E9%81%87 https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=100103type%3D1%26q%3D%... I'm too lazy to check how many of them are reposts of old pictures.

ricardobeat 5y ago
> given that he doesn't mention it, I conclude that he didn't do enough research > I'm too lazy to check how many of them are reposts of old pictures You just proved his point - plenty of images available from 2019 and earlier. Plus he used to have flashy appearances that would be reported on international media every once in a while - the lack of those alone tells us something has changed drastically.

kevin_young 5y ago

imagine how much jacks ass must be gaping after a few months in chinese prison haha

ahtihn 5y ago
Prison rape jokes. Haha. Very funny.
- pjerem 5y ago
  And he created his account for this ! What a life ...
- kevin_young 5y ago
  prisoners dont deserve punishment?
Toutouxc 5y ago
Take this somewhere else, please.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

If a rumor of you playing golf causes you to lose billions in net worth, would you appear in public? Probably not unless a major world leader asked you to do some reason.

627467 5y ago

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

ipausanius 5y ago

Then in May, it was reported that Jack Ma had actually visited Alibaba headquarters for an employee social event. I took this at face value and asked my wife (Chinese) what her opinions were on Ma having not been seen in public for so long. Within a couple of minutes she brought up some Chinese social media posts: video: https://open.163.com/newview/movie/free?pid=TG921CJDP&mid=TG921CJEF https://open.163.com/newview/movie/free?pid=TG921CJDP&mid=TG... that do indeed show Ma giving a speech. Is this a case of the linked article's author not being aware of Chinese social media?

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
I do think the author's argument "There are one billion smartphones in China today" pretty weak. How many smartphone users publish their photos on open social media? Most people probably took pictures and shared them on WeChat with their friends and relatives.
native_samples 5y ago
Is there anywhere in that video or web page that has a date?
- eric-hu 5y ago
  The video has overlay text saying it's May 10th, which seems to be a reference to this event: https://www.reuters.com/technology/jack-ma-makes-rare-visit-alibaba-headquarters-hangzhou-2021-05-10/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/jack-ma-makes-rare-visit-... The project screen behind him in the video looks like it says Aliday 2021 at the top, and the 20 second video clip has subtitles that seem to match what he's saying. The content of what he's saying seems generic, something like "Ali needs to have a singular vision." I _guess_ it could be real. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a deepfake.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Thanks. I can't read Chinese, is it the 5<something>10<something> at the start? That would make sense. I very much doubt it's DeepFaked. Why bother? If the CCP were holding Ma and wanted him to make a generic video like that for putting up appearances I'm sure they have ways to make him do that. I suspect the OP is correct and it's simply that the author of the article doesn't know how to search Chinese social media.

whois_john_galt 5y ago

Who is John Galt?

hkai 5y ago

Admit it, many Americans want something like this to happen to Musk and Zuck.

mensetmanusman 5y ago
I think Americans that don’t support Zuckerberg or Musk would be concerned if they were house arrested after criticizing the current administration.
noone321 5y ago
I wish we still had real investigative journalists. If you're bored sometime, go through the Deng/Murdoch divorce papers and look at how the Murdochs claim Deng altered Lachlan, Rupert and James' business practices to benefit the Chinese government. From the outside, it sounds like certain SV companies are behaving in the exact same way. But I guess we won't know until someone leaks, huh?

mythrwy 5y ago

Charlie Munger has an interesting take on Ma. I don't know exactly what to make of this. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/berkshires-charlie-munger-says-china-right-to-clip-jack-mas-wings/articleshow/83976378.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/ber...

maguay 5y ago

"If Jeff Bezos disappeared, and there was a question that he was in trouble with the US government, I think the press would be all over this. In this case, nobody seems to be too curious about it," via [an interview](https://racket.com/stu/rt6Yh https://racket.com/stu/rt6Yh) with the George Calhoun, the author of this piece. That really may be what's most noteworthy about this case—it feels like it should be a bigger deal, and so it's hard not to speculate about it.