5 ms·

Whatsapp is end to end encrypted.

by graeme 5y ago

BelenusMordred 5y ago
The metadata hosted on Facebook's servers is worth more than the actual content.
- cvwright 5y ago
  People keep repeating this trope about metadata being worth more than content. Where does this come from? I can understand that metadata is valuable -- of course it is. You can learn a lot from metadata. But more valuable than the actual content? Give me a break. Something can be bad without being literally the worst thing ever. Pointless exaggeration like this does nothing for the cause of privacy.
  - Scandiravian 5y ago
    I think it's important to consider scale when discussing metadata vs raw content Getting high precision is difficult when done on "all content", especially considering the multitude of languages and dialects in Europe. At a certain point, more data does not result in better output, sometimes it's actually detrimental The patterns that arise from metadata are much more generalisable and there's less of it, so it's easier to search through
    - novok 5y ago
      Metadata interesting lets you hone in on what you want to inspect full content on. It's definitely an upgrade
  - pyuser583 5y ago
    Metadata is highly structured, standardized, and easily understandable by machines. Content is not.
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    The article is a bit older, but metadata analytics can be used to "unveil" the key conspirators that led to what we today know as the "American Revolution"[1] - please note how little data they use to find out who calls the shots, and whom you might want to disappear if you wanted to keep the colonies closely aligned with George III. Widespread enough, this can be used to find dissidents today, suppressing ethically legitimate uprisings against injustice. [1] https://blog.wolfram.com/2017/06/29/analyzing-social-networks-of-colonial-boston-revolutionaries-with-the-wolfram-language/ https://blog.wolfram.com/2017/06/29/analyzing-social-network...
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Because processing is easier for metadata but analysis of it can answer many questions. Direct communication is only interesting for direct surveillance.
sneak 5y ago
The backups aren't. Same with iMessage. end-to-end has become a marketing buzzword, any large scale deployment gets backdoored (via either key or plaintext escrow) at the endpoints, to FISA/PRISM providers who have to turn it over to the state without a warrant. China has the same setup with providers in their country. WhatsApp and iMessage simply aren't private when the providers get ~100% of the plaintext transiting the service within 24 hours (immediately in the case of iMessage, as thanks to "Messages in iCloud" (cross-device sync) being on by default, the MIC sync key is escrowed to Apple in a non-e2e backup, permitting them to decrypt the sync traffic in realtime). Truly private, easily accessible, society-wide private communications are a threat to sovereignty, and governments know this, which is why even europe (leading the way on individual privacy and rights on this planet, in general) is reluctant to permit it. Same goes for truly censorship-resistant, easily accessible payment systems. They allow you to coordinate (private/uncensorable messaging) and pay for (uncensorable payments) an army outside of state prerogatives, in theory.
- tpush 5y ago
  > [...] as thanks to "Messages in iCloud" (cross-device sync) being on by default [...] Messages in iCloud is off by default AFAIK.
  - sneak 5y ago
    It's not, but in the case of Messages in iCloud being off, the actual plaintext of the iMessages themselves is included in the (non-e2e) iCloud Backup (which I am 100% positive is on by default). In the case of MIC being on, then the MIC sync key is included in the (again, non-e2e) iCloud Backup. MIC on = MIC sync key escrow via iCloud Backup (realtime iMessage content decrypt) MIC off = iMessage plaintext escrow via iCloud backup (nightly) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... Before you mention "but you can turn off iCloud Backup!": these default settings affect all of your conversation partners, too, so even if you disable iCloud Backup, it's likely that your messages are still getting escrowed from the devices of the people you talk to.

Whatsapp is end to end encrypted.

by graeme 5y ago

Whatsapp is end to end encrypted.

BelenusMordred 5y ago

The metadata hosted on Facebook's servers is worth more than the actual content.

cvwright 5y ago
People keep repeating this trope about metadata being worth more than content. Where does this come from? I can understand that metadata is valuable -- of course it is. You can learn a lot from metadata. But more valuable than the actual content? Give me a break. Something can be bad without being literally the worst thing ever. Pointless exaggeration like this does nothing for the cause of privacy.
- Scandiravian 5y ago
  I think it's important to consider scale when discussing metadata vs raw content Getting high precision is difficult when done on "all content", especially considering the multitude of languages and dialects in Europe. At a certain point, more data does not result in better output, sometimes it's actually detrimental The patterns that arise from metadata are much more generalisable and there's less of it, so it's easier to search through
  - novok 5y ago
    Metadata interesting lets you hone in on what you want to inspect full content on. It's definitely an upgrade
- pyuser583 5y ago
  Metadata is highly structured, standardized, and easily understandable by machines. Content is not.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  The article is a bit older, but metadata analytics can be used to "unveil" the key conspirators that led to what we today know as the "American Revolution"[1] - please note how little data they use to find out who calls the shots, and whom you might want to disappear if you wanted to keep the colonies closely aligned with George III. Widespread enough, this can be used to find dissidents today, suppressing ethically legitimate uprisings against injustice. [1] https://blog.wolfram.com/2017/06/29/analyzing-social-networks-of-colonial-boston-revolutionaries-with-the-wolfram-language/ https://blog.wolfram.com/2017/06/29/analyzing-social-network...
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Because processing is easier for metadata but analysis of it can answer many questions. Direct communication is only interesting for direct surveillance.

sneak 5y ago

The backups aren't. Same with iMessage. end-to-end has become a marketing buzzword, any large scale deployment gets backdoored (via either key or plaintext escrow) at the endpoints, to FISA/PRISM providers who have to turn it over to the state without a warrant. China has the same setup with providers in their country. WhatsApp and iMessage simply aren't private when the providers get ~100% of the plaintext transiting the service within 24 hours (immediately in the case of iMessage, as thanks to "Messages in iCloud" (cross-device sync) being on by default, the MIC sync key is escrowed to Apple in a non-e2e backup, permitting them to decrypt the sync traffic in realtime). Truly private, easily accessible, society-wide private communications are a threat to sovereignty, and governments know this, which is why even europe (leading the way on individual privacy and rights on this planet, in general) is reluctant to permit it. Same goes for truly censorship-resistant, easily accessible payment systems. They allow you to coordinate (private/uncensorable messaging) and pay for (uncensorable payments) an army outside of state prerogatives, in theory.

tpush 5y ago
> [...] as thanks to "Messages in iCloud" (cross-device sync) being on by default [...] Messages in iCloud is off by default AFAIK.
- sneak 5y ago
  It's not, but in the case of Messages in iCloud being off, the actual plaintext of the iMessages themselves is included in the (non-e2e) iCloud Backup (which I am 100% positive is on by default). In the case of MIC being on, then the MIC sync key is included in the (again, non-e2e) iCloud Backup. MIC on = MIC sync key escrow via iCloud Backup (realtime iMessage content decrypt) MIC off = iMessage plaintext escrow via iCloud backup (nightly) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... Before you mention "but you can turn off iCloud Backup!": these default settings affect all of your conversation partners, too, so even if you disable iCloud Backup, it's likely that your messages are still getting escrowed from the devices of the people you talk to.