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Saying too many people are "brainier" than they are is probably the real issue. Turchin's prediction: > “The next decade is likely to be a period of growing i

Saying too many people are "brainier" than they are is probably the real issue. Turchin's prediction: > “The next decade is likely to be a period of growing instability in the United States and western Europe,” he asserted, pointing in part to the “overproduction of young graduates with advanced degrees”. ...overlooks something key: they didn't produce an a new elite, only "elitists," who never quite arrive. The resentment from people who became middle class after graduating from debt funded college is the result of how all that work didn't deliver on the promise of upper-middle security. The Gen-X cliche of baristas with masters degrees has simmered for a couple of decades, and it has metastisized into a deep loathing for the working people Gen-X grads haven't been able to differentiate themselves from, and hence the "burn it all down," attitude you see in a lot of them. The coders and general contractors who didn't go to university who out earn and out-succeed grads is a real cultural factor, and a big part of the U.S. red/blue divide. If you look up Girard and "mimetic violence," you can get a useful framework with predictive power on the dynamic they're describing. The promise of college and debt was they would be elevated into an elite, but of course, they weren't, and now these smart-enough and educated people bitterly hate what they call the "trash" and neighbors they still too-closely resemble, and who the remaining elite confuses them with. The political instability aspect of it in the article is that if you want to see who is setting fires in cities and throwing rocks at police, it's people with just enough security and social capital to get away with it, but not enough to meet their self image as legit members of the elites their educations allowed them to percieve. Brainy? No. Promised something and told it was because they were brainy? Probably.

JPKab 5y ago
Well said. Anecdotally, the level of resentment I've seen from masters CS grads towards more talented coders with no degree was pretty epic at my last company. I've also seen this get pretty ugly in the ML/deep learning community between the credentialed academics and the practitioners.
- annoyingnoob 5y ago
  I don't have a college degree. Though I usually get jobs where I'm surrounded by people that have degrees or advanced degrees. I can recall a particular startup where I was the only person without a degree, the person that I worked for had an advanced degree. This person that I worked for always resented that I made about the same income without a degree. There is no way I could have ever reached management in that company without a degree - no matter how qualified or good, because of elitist bias.
  - beaner 5y ago
    > This person that I worked for always resented that I made about the same income without a degree. How do you know this was the reason, or even that they resented you at all?
    - annoyingnoob 5y ago
      The HR person let it slip to me one day that I was making $5k less than my boss. My boss had made comments about my salary given my position. We wanted to hire an Engineering Manager from outside the company, this person would not hire someone very qualified because he lacked a degree. I mentioned something in passing one day, joking, saying I wanted to be the CTO - this person told me 'fine, go get a PhD'. No one was going to advance to be equal to or beyond this person without an advanced degree.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  You also see a lot of the opposite, tbh. Resentment in general tends to be largely driven by personal attitudes, regardless of one's actual circumstances.
  - toxik 5y ago
    Very true, and both sides are justified in their attitudes. You’re not necessarily better because you went to grad school, but you might have learned some things that you wouldn’t know if you just programmed cool stuff. I find two expressions of this: over reverent attitude bordering on complete deference, and stubborn rejection of anything that sounds vaguely complicated.
- api 5y ago
  I'm a self-taught coder, and I'll never forget years ago someone with an MIT degree turning to me with a look of mild indignation and saying "how do you know this stuff?"
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > from masters CS grads towards more talented coders with no degree A CS masters isn't necessarily signaling the right things [0] [1]. Especially if it's a "terminal" master (and not someone dropping out of a PhD). > I've also seen this get pretty ugly in the ML/deep learning community between the credentialed academics and the practitioners. Lots of institutions embarked on the ML bandwagon, but unless the credentialed academics have connections/worked at a serious lab, I much prefer practitioners. [0] https://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-computer-science-from-a-m-s-in-computer-science-when-it-comes-to-recruiting/ https://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-compu... [1] https://ozwrites.com/masters/ https://ozwrites.com/masters/
jmull 5y ago
I don't think you're talking about Generation X. We were the last generation where more higher education made sense/paid off, on average. Also, the classism you describe seems antithetical to general Gen X attitudes.
- wombatpm 5y ago
  I was ready to burn it all down in the 80's when were living with the spectre of nuclear war. Long before college and grad school.
mistrial9 5y ago
quite a personal set of projections you have gathered there, maybe you should become a barista?
runnerup 5y ago
> now these smart-enough and educated people bitterly hate what they call the "trash" (which I guess are the middle class, "general contractors", etc) This isn't resonating with me. Generally I see those "baristas with masters degrees" (which I viewed here as an alias for the 60-70% of all degreed people who lean somewhat left) are typically advocating for policies to help the working class. It doesn't seem fueled by hatred for the working class. Sincerely, a middle-class oilfield worker.
- rayiner 5y ago
  I grew up with these people. They hate the working class. The “policies to help the working class” is legacy Democratic politics. Today, that’s rapidly changing, and they only care about the working class people if those people aren’t white. (See the reaction to JD Vance’s book.)
  - potatoman22 5y ago
    "these people" don't have a single opinion, life isn't that simple.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      No but you can detect prevalent attitudes.
  - runnerup 5y ago
    > I grew up with these people. So did I. I grew up in the “most educated” city in America. I’ve really not seen this. Those I grew up with have strong opinions about my choice to work on oil rigs in Saudi Arabia but have been quite consistent in wanting job-, employment-, training- and relocation assistance for West Virginia coal workers. Who are quite white, statistically. I have no idea who JD Vance is and I asked two-handfuls of my degrees friends, they haven’t heard either. Your impression of the situation doesn’t seem to resonate with my reality at all.
    - 5y ago
paulpauper 5y ago
>The coders and general contractors who didn't go to university who out earn and out-succeed grads is a real cultural factor, and a big part .of the U.S. red/blue divide. Hardly. Those are just outliers. Even in spite of the college-educated barista trope, which is a favorite of the media and pundits when making a sweeping generalization about an entire generation, the data has consistently shown that college grads make more than high school grads and this gap has only widened since 2008.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  OK, but what's the distribution of college graduate distribution? Is it bimodal? That is, is there a significant fraction of college grads who don't make more than high school grads? If so, those are the ones who are angry.
- native_samples 5y ago
  However, given the topic is "elite" production, at least some of those people would have got the high earning jobs anyway because university is used as little more than a finishing school by the parents before they parachuted their offspring into a cushy job somewhere inside the government or a large corporation via their contacts network. The actual degree is irrelevant to their earnings.
- baja_blast 5y ago
  > college grads make more than high school grads and this gap has only widened since 2008 Problem is that it's not that college grads have made more and become more successful, but that good sustainable jobs for high school grads have completely vanished and a college degree is now the minimum requirement a high school degree once was. Many people with business/social studies degrees are taking the jobs that were once filled with high school grads, and the high school grads are now just homeless. If I was 80k in debt and working at Star Bucks I'd be pissed too!
908B64B197 5y ago
> they didn't produce an a new elite, only "elitists," who never quite arrive. The resentment from people who became middle class after graduating from debt funded college is the result of how all that work didn't deliver on the promise of upper-middle security. The Gen-X cliche of baristas with masters degrees has simmered for a couple of decades, and it has metastisized into a deep loathing for the working people Gen-X grads haven't been able to differentiate themselves from What were they expecting going into fields with no growth or market? > The coders and general contractors who didn't go to university who out earn and out-succeed grads is a real cultural factor Our industry was built by drop-outs, so there's a certain legend and expectation that the next Gates or Jobs will be one of them, but they are rare to encounter in real life.
TrispusAttucks 5y ago
Revolutionaries don't want change so much as they want power. "Revolutions have never lightened the burden of tyranny. They have only shifted it to another shoulder." ~ GEORGE BERNARD SHAW

JPKab 5y ago

Well said. Anecdotally, the level of resentment I've seen from masters CS grads towards more talented coders with no degree was pretty epic at my last company. I've also seen this get pretty ugly in the ML/deep learning community between the credentialed academics and the practitioners.

annoyingnoob 5y ago
I don't have a college degree. Though I usually get jobs where I'm surrounded by people that have degrees or advanced degrees. I can recall a particular startup where I was the only person without a degree, the person that I worked for had an advanced degree. This person that I worked for always resented that I made about the same income without a degree. There is no way I could have ever reached management in that company without a degree - no matter how qualified or good, because of elitist bias.
- beaner 5y ago
  > This person that I worked for always resented that I made about the same income without a degree. How do you know this was the reason, or even that they resented you at all?
  - annoyingnoob 5y ago
    The HR person let it slip to me one day that I was making $5k less than my boss. My boss had made comments about my salary given my position. We wanted to hire an Engineering Manager from outside the company, this person would not hire someone very qualified because he lacked a degree. I mentioned something in passing one day, joking, saying I wanted to be the CTO - this person told me 'fine, go get a PhD'. No one was going to advance to be equal to or beyond this person without an advanced degree.
zozbot234 5y ago
You also see a lot of the opposite, tbh. Resentment in general tends to be largely driven by personal attitudes, regardless of one's actual circumstances.
- toxik 5y ago
  Very true, and both sides are justified in their attitudes. You’re not necessarily better because you went to grad school, but you might have learned some things that you wouldn’t know if you just programmed cool stuff. I find two expressions of this: over reverent attitude bordering on complete deference, and stubborn rejection of anything that sounds vaguely complicated.
api 5y ago
I'm a self-taught coder, and I'll never forget years ago someone with an MIT degree turning to me with a look of mild indignation and saying "how do you know this stuff?"
908B64B197 5y ago
> from masters CS grads towards more talented coders with no degree A CS masters isn't necessarily signaling the right things [0] [1]. Especially if it's a "terminal" master (and not someone dropping out of a PhD). > I've also seen this get pretty ugly in the ML/deep learning community between the credentialed academics and the practitioners. Lots of institutions embarked on the ML bandwagon, but unless the credentialed academics have connections/worked at a serious lab, I much prefer practitioners. [0] https://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-computer-science-from-a-m-s-in-computer-science-when-it-comes-to-recruiting/ https://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-compu... [1] https://ozwrites.com/masters/ https://ozwrites.com/masters/

jmull 5y ago

I don't think you're talking about Generation X. We were the last generation where more higher education made sense/paid off, on average. Also, the classism you describe seems antithetical to general Gen X attitudes.

wombatpm 5y ago
I was ready to burn it all down in the 80's when were living with the spectre of nuclear war. Long before college and grad school.

mistrial9 5y ago

quite a personal set of projections you have gathered there, maybe you should become a barista?

runnerup 5y ago

> now these smart-enough and educated people bitterly hate what they call the "trash" (which I guess are the middle class, "general contractors", etc) This isn't resonating with me. Generally I see those "baristas with masters degrees" (which I viewed here as an alias for the 60-70% of all degreed people who lean somewhat left) are typically advocating for policies to help the working class. It doesn't seem fueled by hatred for the working class. Sincerely, a middle-class oilfield worker.

rayiner 5y ago
I grew up with these people. They hate the working class. The “policies to help the working class” is legacy Democratic politics. Today, that’s rapidly changing, and they only care about the working class people if those people aren’t white. (See the reaction to JD Vance’s book.)
- potatoman22 5y ago
  "these people" don't have a single opinion, life isn't that simple.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    No but you can detect prevalent attitudes.
- runnerup 5y ago
  > I grew up with these people. So did I. I grew up in the “most educated” city in America. I’ve really not seen this. Those I grew up with have strong opinions about my choice to work on oil rigs in Saudi Arabia but have been quite consistent in wanting job-, employment-, training- and relocation assistance for West Virginia coal workers. Who are quite white, statistically. I have no idea who JD Vance is and I asked two-handfuls of my degrees friends, they haven’t heard either. Your impression of the situation doesn’t seem to resonate with my reality at all.
  - 5y ago

paulpauper 5y ago

>The coders and general contractors who didn't go to university who out earn and out-succeed grads is a real cultural factor, and a big part .of the U.S. red/blue divide. Hardly. Those are just outliers. Even in spite of the college-educated barista trope, which is a favorite of the media and pundits when making a sweeping generalization about an entire generation, the data has consistently shown that college grads make more than high school grads and this gap has only widened since 2008.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
OK, but what's the distribution of college graduate distribution? Is it bimodal? That is, is there a significant fraction of college grads who don't make more than high school grads? If so, those are the ones who are angry.
native_samples 5y ago
However, given the topic is "elite" production, at least some of those people would have got the high earning jobs anyway because university is used as little more than a finishing school by the parents before they parachuted their offspring into a cushy job somewhere inside the government or a large corporation via their contacts network. The actual degree is irrelevant to their earnings.
baja_blast 5y ago
> college grads make more than high school grads and this gap has only widened since 2008 Problem is that it's not that college grads have made more and become more successful, but that good sustainable jobs for high school grads have completely vanished and a college degree is now the minimum requirement a high school degree once was. Many people with business/social studies degrees are taking the jobs that were once filled with high school grads, and the high school grads are now just homeless. If I was 80k in debt and working at Star Bucks I'd be pissed too!

908B64B197 5y ago

> they didn't produce an a new elite, only "elitists," who never quite arrive. The resentment from people who became middle class after graduating from debt funded college is the result of how all that work didn't deliver on the promise of upper-middle security. The Gen-X cliche of baristas with masters degrees has simmered for a couple of decades, and it has metastisized into a deep loathing for the working people Gen-X grads haven't been able to differentiate themselves from What were they expecting going into fields with no growth or market? > The coders and general contractors who didn't go to university who out earn and out-succeed grads is a real cultural factor Our industry was built by drop-outs, so there's a certain legend and expectation that the next Gates or Jobs will be one of them, but they are rare to encounter in real life.

TrispusAttucks 5y ago

Revolutionaries don't want change so much as they want power. "Revolutions have never lightened the burden of tyranny. They have only shifted it to another shoulder." ~ GEORGE BERNARD SHAW