8 ms·

The Reason for Windows 11

42 points by CrankyBear 5y ago

m_st 5y ago
The real reason for Windows 11 is that they could finally drop the Internet Explorer 11 GUI.
- cududa 5y ago
  The what?
- zamadatix 5y ago
  Since Windows 10 RTM they have, in subsequent releases, removed (not just deprecated): - Hardware support, such as AGP or older CPUs including some Atoms - Feature support such as Briefcases, SMB1, HomeGroup, PNRP, Windows To Go - Applications shipped with the OS such as Games Explorer, Outlook Express, and other apps like Reader they even introduced with 10 and later discontinued completely. But more importantly than all the above - they already did exactly this with the legacy Edge to Chromium based Edge conversion in 10. Very similarly the backend webview stuff based on Edge is still there but the legacy browser UI is inaccessible. The article is probably spot on if there is a technical reason to blame instead of pure marketing. Things deprecrate and get removed completely without needing to rename the OS these days, things also get added, but not on the scale the hardware requirements change the security baseline imposes. It's easy to explain to a few folks with Atoms from the mid to late 2000s that the next Windows 10 update won't work but the number of users impacted by the hardware requirements for 11 is many orders of magnitude greater on top of being harder to explain. Calling it a new OS completely is the only feasible way to crack that transition explanation.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  Windows 11 allows you to install IE11, just have to add it as an Apps & Feature -> Optional Feature. Plus the Win32 WebBrowser control and similar still heavily rely on IE11's engine for the foreseeable future.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    These instructions are accurate for 10 but on 11 it'd just be under "Apps" not "Apps and Features" anymore and the only option available in Optional Features now is "Internet Explorer Mode" which is a view mode in Edge and does not bring back iexplore.exe. Microsoft.com seems to agree with the empirical result above: "Internet Explorer is disabled. Microsoft Edge is the recommended replacement and includes IE Mode which may be useful in certain scenarios." https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica... The backend for app compatibility isn't going anywhere though just the browser frontend.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  macOs went to 11.
  - kcartlidge 5y ago
    Mac OS (speaking as a two-decade Mac user) still needs a third party tool just to expand or snap windows properly. And its accessibility options are poor.
xbar 5y ago
Security is a good reason.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dlojudice 5y ago
  It is a great reason but could be optional for less powerful setups and a must for new ones.
  - soco 5y ago
    I can imagine the flak Microsoft would be getting for letting weaker machines unsecured.
    - dlojudice 5y ago
      well, it is already unsecured now by Windows 11 standards
  - intpx 5y ago
    and if it, you know, actually mitigated the most common threat vectors (that all run in userland and microsoft does next to nothing to effectively stop) like ransomware.
alexmcc81 5y ago
Mandatory Microsoft accounts also mean a concrete, cross platform identity for advertising/tracking and an account to drive One Drive/Office/cloud services purchases (already heavily advertised throughout the OS in the case of One Drive).
- handrous 5y ago
  My "ah ha" moment for why they're shitting up their OS with ads was when I discovered my uncle had managed to follow their prompts to the point of paying for One Drive, but had no idea what it was or how to use it (in fact, he was confused how some of his files were becoming "lost"). He just thought it was "something he needed". [EDIT] which is to say, they're joining Google (ads inline with results—watch a non-geek use Google some time) and Amazon (just... the whole store) with a scamming-the-unsaavy business model.
  - alexmcc81 5y ago
    I've had to set aside several hours to set up family members Windows laptops for that reason. It's crazy to have to jump through hoops to get an offline account, battle the OS to use their browser of choice (possibly reverted by future updates) and download random scripts from GitHub to remove advertising, confusing trialware and random games from the default install - and that's before you get to the laptop vendor software.
    - baxuz 5y ago
      Buying a Windows laptop is a horrible decision. I always recommend people to buy either a Windows desktop or a Mac laptop. Yet everyone wants a "gaming laptop" for some reason. Possibly the worst option you could buy.
deregulateMed 5y ago
>Apple requires new hardware so they can vertical integrate and save money "This is great, Intel suxxxx" >Microsoft requires a hardware upgrade for security "This is bad news" No idea what causes the human brain to rationalize corporate choices, but Apple gets apologies and praise. Microsoft/Google gets hate. Maybe I'm a negative Nancy and negatively respond to everything, but I don't think I've ever seen people defend a Google or Microsoft choice. Brand loyalty is quite a psychology trick. I think we should praise Google and Microsoft for not hacking our brains.
- paulddraper 5y ago
  Well "Think Different" certainly happened :/
- theFco 5y ago
  These are probably different people praising and complaining. It could be that some people use Windows because of it's track record of backwards compatibility and this is an unwelcome change. It is not necessarily brand loyalty, it could simply be brand expectations.
- cogman10 5y ago
  Apple has always been somewhat of a walled garden. Google/Microsoft have not. So when they make moves to put up walls, people get upset. Meanwhile, apple gets a pass because "well, they already have security requirements that prevent me from doing stuff".
  - simonh 5y ago
    From looking at previous discussion on this here, in no way shape or form do they get a pass. Quite right too.
  - deregulateMed 5y ago
    "Walled garden" is marketing speak for "walled prison".
- intpx 5y ago
m12k 5y ago
My first thought, upon hearing that Windows 11 was coming, was that they were finally doing something to take ARM-compatibility seriously, so they could compete with Apple's M1. I still haven't heard anything that indicates this will be the case though.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  Maybe they're relying on Android app support on ARM devises to make up the short-fall in native Windows applications. It certainly will increase the program category, and they can advertise Windows tablets as "Android Tablets++."
- orik 5y ago
  ARM64 support?
- marcthe12 5y ago
  They introduced a new abi for arm that seems to be compatible with emulated x86_64. Maybe trying a WOW64 but for ARM?
JimA 5y ago
It's much easier to state that HW is "Windows 11 ready" vs saying something like HW is "Windows 10 build 2110 ready"
EvanAnderson 5y ago
Most Windows malware I see today runs with the rights of the logged-on user. Encrypting file servers (at least portions thereof), exfiltrating data, and spreading via email are all easily accomplished with the rights available to a normal user. Without a privilege escalation exploit the attacker probably can't install a driver or spread to other user sessions on the same machine, but everything accessible to the logged-on user is accessible to the malware. Without a capabilities-based security model I don't see what good the "for security" changes in Windows 11 really bring to the table for end user security. Capabilities-based security would be a major breaking change for legacy software anyway. More than likely, would just result in IT departments granting all capabilities to all legacy software. The Windows 11 "security" seems more about removing general purpose computing access for "tinkering" end users to enable more draconian DRM, walled-garden type business models, etc.
- alexmcc81 5y ago
  I kind of agree. Cynically I see Windows 11 as a big leap for Microsoft in terms of getting to their own ChromeOS. Mandatory online accounts, integrated Teams, very dark patterns to force Edge usage (with all the associated tracking), pushing One Drive hard... all to get a totally surveilled, locked-in user dependent on their cloud services who is a rich source of data for advertising and a target for monthly service charges.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
    Based on the initial reactions I have a feeling this move can backfire. I don't believe most people with obsoleted hardware will switch to Linux - they'll be using Windows 10 for as long as they can, but I think some portion of them will consider a switch, at least on private machines. There is a limit of abuse you can tolerate.
    - einr 5y ago
      There is a limit of abuse you can tolerate. This is the exact belief that lots of people had with regard to the Windows 7 -> 10 migration. Turns out, when people feel like they don't really have a choice, they will tolerate a lot of abuse. In fact, I'm not sure that there is a limit to the amount as long as the abusers make sure to boil the frog slowly.
dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
I don't disagree with the author, but Microsoft-defined and -controlled security is also a step forward into a bland world of locked-in devices controlled by a third party, not something you really own. And that's good as it will help people to think a bit about their priorities. What was unthinkable two decades ago, today is quite easy: because of the paradigm change from desktop to web apps, switching to Linux is not a sacrifice but a feasible operation, with the difficulty level related to the kind of hardware you own - and fortunately most hardware obsoleted by Windows 11 is quite well supported by Linux.
nkssy 5y ago
Xbox gaming needs hardware level security to run in Windows. Big money. That's reason alone to do this. Android support needed linux. This is part of the reason for WSL. That and lessening the need for enterprises to gain experience with bare metal linux to get access to the open source goodies. Finally, mandating hardware security is a breaking upgrade in this case. Everyone expects these major changes to require a version bump. The confusion around windows 10 if there were two significant varieties would be incredibly fragmenting, not to mention, just frustrating. Somewhere in there is the real reason.
simonblack 5y ago
Nope. I have an ultrabook from about 10 years back, that runs Win7. I used to have both Windows and Linux on it. But I have just recently converted it back to Windows only. With a mere 128 gig SSD, it is sufficiently large for any Windows work that needs doing (Very, very little, these days) and Win7 was the last version with any quality. That allows me to remove Windows 10 completely from my newer Lenovo P53 laptop and allow Linux to spread over the whole 5TB of SSDs.
mmplxx 5y ago
> because most of us will need to buy new PCs to make it work. Stopped reading at the headline. Some hyperbole I tolerate, but this one has gone way too far.

42 points by CrankyBear 5y ago

m_st 5y ago

The real reason for Windows 11 is that they could finally drop the Internet Explorer 11 GUI.

cududa 5y ago
The what?
zamadatix 5y ago
Since Windows 10 RTM they have, in subsequent releases, removed (not just deprecated): - Hardware support, such as AGP or older CPUs including some Atoms - Feature support such as Briefcases, SMB1, HomeGroup, PNRP, Windows To Go - Applications shipped with the OS such as Games Explorer, Outlook Express, and other apps like Reader they even introduced with 10 and later discontinued completely. But more importantly than all the above - they already did exactly this with the legacy Edge to Chromium based Edge conversion in 10. Very similarly the backend webview stuff based on Edge is still there but the legacy browser UI is inaccessible. The article is probably spot on if there is a technical reason to blame instead of pure marketing. Things deprecrate and get removed completely without needing to rename the OS these days, things also get added, but not on the scale the hardware requirements change the security baseline imposes. It's easy to explain to a few folks with Atoms from the mid to late 2000s that the next Windows 10 update won't work but the number of users impacted by the hardware requirements for 11 is many orders of magnitude greater on top of being harder to explain. Calling it a new OS completely is the only feasible way to crack that transition explanation.
Someone1234 5y ago
Windows 11 allows you to install IE11, just have to add it as an Apps & Feature -> Optional Feature. Plus the Win32 WebBrowser control and similar still heavily rely on IE11's engine for the foreseeable future.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  These instructions are accurate for 10 but on 11 it'd just be under "Apps" not "Apps and Features" anymore and the only option available in Optional Features now is "Internet Explorer Mode" which is a view mode in Edge and does not bring back iexplore.exe. Microsoft.com seems to agree with the empirical result above: "Internet Explorer is disabled. Microsoft Edge is the recommended replacement and includes IE Mode which may be useful in certain scenarios." https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica... The backend for app compatibility isn't going anywhere though just the browser frontend.
mixmastamyk 5y ago
macOs went to 11.
- kcartlidge 5y ago
  Mac OS (speaking as a two-decade Mac user) still needs a third party tool just to expand or snap windows properly. And its accessibility options are poor.

xbar 5y ago

Security is a good reason.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dlojudice 5y ago
It is a great reason but could be optional for less powerful setups and a must for new ones.
- soco 5y ago
  I can imagine the flak Microsoft would be getting for letting weaker machines unsecured.
  - dlojudice 5y ago
    well, it is already unsecured now by Windows 11 standards
- intpx 5y ago
  and if it, you know, actually mitigated the most common threat vectors (that all run in userland and microsoft does next to nothing to effectively stop) like ransomware.

alexmcc81 5y ago

Mandatory Microsoft accounts also mean a concrete, cross platform identity for advertising/tracking and an account to drive One Drive/Office/cloud services purchases (already heavily advertised throughout the OS in the case of One Drive).

handrous 5y ago
My "ah ha" moment for why they're shitting up their OS with ads was when I discovered my uncle had managed to follow their prompts to the point of paying for One Drive, but had no idea what it was or how to use it (in fact, he was confused how some of his files were becoming "lost"). He just thought it was "something he needed". [EDIT] which is to say, they're joining Google (ads inline with results—watch a non-geek use Google some time) and Amazon (just... the whole store) with a scamming-the-unsaavy business model.
- alexmcc81 5y ago
  I've had to set aside several hours to set up family members Windows laptops for that reason. It's crazy to have to jump through hoops to get an offline account, battle the OS to use their browser of choice (possibly reverted by future updates) and download random scripts from GitHub to remove advertising, confusing trialware and random games from the default install - and that's before you get to the laptop vendor software.
  - baxuz 5y ago
    Buying a Windows laptop is a horrible decision. I always recommend people to buy either a Windows desktop or a Mac laptop. Yet everyone wants a "gaming laptop" for some reason. Possibly the worst option you could buy.

deregulateMed 5y ago

>Apple requires new hardware so they can vertical integrate and save money "This is great, Intel suxxxx" >Microsoft requires a hardware upgrade for security "This is bad news" No idea what causes the human brain to rationalize corporate choices, but Apple gets apologies and praise. Microsoft/Google gets hate. Maybe I'm a negative Nancy and negatively respond to everything, but I don't think I've ever seen people defend a Google or Microsoft choice. Brand loyalty is quite a psychology trick. I think we should praise Google and Microsoft for not hacking our brains.

paulddraper 5y ago
Well "Think Different" certainly happened :/
theFco 5y ago
These are probably different people praising and complaining. It could be that some people use Windows because of it's track record of backwards compatibility and this is an unwelcome change. It is not necessarily brand loyalty, it could simply be brand expectations.
cogman10 5y ago
Apple has always been somewhat of a walled garden. Google/Microsoft have not. So when they make moves to put up walls, people get upset. Meanwhile, apple gets a pass because "well, they already have security requirements that prevent me from doing stuff".
- simonh 5y ago
  From looking at previous discussion on this here, in no way shape or form do they get a pass. Quite right too.
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  "Walled garden" is marketing speak for "walled prison".
intpx 5y ago

m12k 5y ago

My first thought, upon hearing that Windows 11 was coming, was that they were finally doing something to take ARM-compatibility seriously, so they could compete with Apple's M1. I still haven't heard anything that indicates this will be the case though.

Someone1234 5y ago
Maybe they're relying on Android app support on ARM devises to make up the short-fall in native Windows applications. It certainly will increase the program category, and they can advertise Windows tablets as "Android Tablets++."
orik 5y ago
ARM64 support?
marcthe12 5y ago
They introduced a new abi for arm that seems to be compatible with emulated x86_64. Maybe trying a WOW64 but for ARM?

JimA 5y ago

It's much easier to state that HW is "Windows 11 ready" vs saying something like HW is "Windows 10 build 2110 ready"

EvanAnderson 5y ago

Most Windows malware I see today runs with the rights of the logged-on user. Encrypting file servers (at least portions thereof), exfiltrating data, and spreading via email are all easily accomplished with the rights available to a normal user. Without a privilege escalation exploit the attacker probably can't install a driver or spread to other user sessions on the same machine, but everything accessible to the logged-on user is accessible to the malware. Without a capabilities-based security model I don't see what good the "for security" changes in Windows 11 really bring to the table for end user security. Capabilities-based security would be a major breaking change for legacy software anyway. More than likely, would just result in IT departments granting all capabilities to all legacy software. The Windows 11 "security" seems more about removing general purpose computing access for "tinkering" end users to enable more draconian DRM, walled-garden type business models, etc.

alexmcc81 5y ago
I kind of agree. Cynically I see Windows 11 as a big leap for Microsoft in terms of getting to their own ChromeOS. Mandatory online accounts, integrated Teams, very dark patterns to force Edge usage (with all the associated tracking), pushing One Drive hard... all to get a totally surveilled, locked-in user dependent on their cloud services who is a rich source of data for advertising and a target for monthly service charges.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  Based on the initial reactions I have a feeling this move can backfire. I don't believe most people with obsoleted hardware will switch to Linux - they'll be using Windows 10 for as long as they can, but I think some portion of them will consider a switch, at least on private machines. There is a limit of abuse you can tolerate.
  - einr 5y ago
    There is a limit of abuse you can tolerate. This is the exact belief that lots of people had with regard to the Windows 7 -> 10 migration. Turns out, when people feel like they don't really have a choice, they will tolerate a lot of abuse. In fact, I'm not sure that there is a limit to the amount as long as the abusers make sure to boil the frog slowly.

dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago

I don't disagree with the author, but Microsoft-defined and -controlled security is also a step forward into a bland world of locked-in devices controlled by a third party, not something you really own. And that's good as it will help people to think a bit about their priorities. What was unthinkable two decades ago, today is quite easy: because of the paradigm change from desktop to web apps, switching to Linux is not a sacrifice but a feasible operation, with the difficulty level related to the kind of hardware you own - and fortunately most hardware obsoleted by Windows 11 is quite well supported by Linux.

nkssy 5y ago

Xbox gaming needs hardware level security to run in Windows. Big money. That's reason alone to do this. Android support needed linux. This is part of the reason for WSL. That and lessening the need for enterprises to gain experience with bare metal linux to get access to the open source goodies. Finally, mandating hardware security is a breaking upgrade in this case. Everyone expects these major changes to require a version bump. The confusion around windows 10 if there were two significant varieties would be incredibly fragmenting, not to mention, just frustrating. Somewhere in there is the real reason.

simonblack 5y ago

Nope. I have an ultrabook from about 10 years back, that runs Win7. I used to have both Windows and Linux on it. But I have just recently converted it back to Windows only. With a mere 128 gig SSD, it is sufficiently large for any Windows work that needs doing (Very, very little, these days) and Win7 was the last version with any quality. That allows me to remove Windows 10 completely from my newer Lenovo P53 laptop and allow Linux to spread over the whole 5TB of SSDs.

mmplxx 5y ago

> because most of us will need to buy new PCs to make it work. Stopped reading at the headline. Some hyperbole I tolerate, but this one has gone way too far.