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>Today, saying that cow dung does not cure covid, can land you in jail because it goes against the government's narrative. I overall agree with the point that

>Today, saying that cow dung does not cure covid, can land you in jail because it goes against the government's narrative. I overall agree with the point that many indian authorities have been using laws to punish dissent, but that is a little disingenuous. The specific context in that case was that those comments were made about the death of a BJP leader. So, those people were jailed for mocking the death of a politician, not for merely saying that cowdung does not cure covid. I mean, the reality is bad enough as it is. There is no need to exaggerate.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> those people were jailed for mocking the death of a politician, not for merely saying that cowdung does not cure covid. > I mean, the reality is bad enough as it is. There is no need to exaggerate. You reminded me of how American commentary seems determined to push the obviously false claim that Uyghurs in China are being oppressed because of their religion, when it would be so much easier to defend the claim that they're being oppressed because of their race. (Even easier would be that they're being oppressed due to dissidence.) Most people are just repeating something they've heard, and couldn't analyze the merits of a claim if they wanted to.
- alex_smart 5y ago
  >Most people are just repeating something they've heard, and couldn't analyze the merits of a claim if they wanted to. This is something I have thought about a bit over last several years. A lot of people I trust to have good intentions seem to regularly indulge in untruths or exaggerations to rile up support for their cause. One particular example that comes to mind is how pretty much all liberal voices (including nobel peace prize winner Kalyan Sathyarthi) spread lies about a child labour bill in India that was passed in 2016. All of them were saying in unison that this bill was weakening the existing child labour laws and will allow all sort of child exploitation. So, I decided to read the bill and the original act that the bill was supposed to amend. I was stunned. There was absolutely no truth to the claims. The bill was actually making the child labour law much, much more stringend and I, even with my programmer in bug-fixing mode brain, couldn't conjure up a single hypothetical scenario where a child was forbidden from working earlier would now be allowed to work. So why were all these people lying? Why would Kalyan Sathyarthi, of all people, who has saved hundreds of thousands of children from child labour and trafficking, lie about something that pertains directly to his life's work? The only explanation I could think of is that perhaps the law didn't go as far enough or didn't include certain amendments as they wanted and this was their way of pressurizing the government to listen to them. But that still left a bad taste in my mouth. Perhaps this is something my brain, trained to value truth above everything else, isn't quite mature enough to understand.
  - kevinwang 5y ago
    Never heard of it before, but just googled it and it looks like it introduced a new exemption for children to work for their families: https://thediplomat.com/2016/08/indias-new-child-labor-law-billed-to-fail/ https://thediplomat.com/2016/08/indias-new-child-labor-law-b...
    - alex_smart 5y ago
      Yes, I just told you that everybody was lying about the bill.
      - random314 5y ago
        No. The article goes against what you have been claiming. How did your programmer brain not see the flaws satyarthi is pointing out? Why such shoddy/research or comments on your part?
        alex_smart 5y ago
        >The article goes against what you have been claiming. Not really, that article is an example of people spreading the lies. Perhaps it was not clear to you, but my claim in the previous comment was that a, pretty much all liberal voices were saying that bill would weaken the existing child labour laws and b, that all of them were lying. So the fact that you can find many such articles saying those things is not really inconsistent with my claim. >How did your programmer brain not see the flaws satyarthi is pointing out? Because they did not exist. Like I said, I read the bill and the law that the bill seeked to amend and found that there was not a single instance or way in which the bill would weaken the child labour law. In fact, in was very significantly strengthening the child labour law. Look, I know for you it is just one random person speaking on the internet vs hundreds of sources and people that you inherently trust. So, I can understand if your instinct is to not believe what I say and in that case you are welcome to just ignore me and move on. But if you actually want to get to the bottom of this, then please do read the bill (now act) and the original law, and you will find that I am right. All you would need to prove me wrong will be a single example, however hypothetical or far-fetched, of a situation in which it was earlier forbidden for a child to work that would have been allowed under the new bill.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  But Uighurs are being oppressed due to religion, it’s just the generic religious oppression that China applies to everyone. Heck, even if racism and dissidence wasn’t involved, there is still oppression that is or was rather common in the rest of China (eg re-education work camps weren’t invented in Xinjiang). There is plenty of room for both sides to play on technical truths, perhaps the same is happening in India (I have no idea).
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > But Uighurs are being oppressed due to religion, it’s just the generic religious oppression that China applies to everyone. Reporting claims that (1) the Uyghurs are suffering under much more oppression than other Chinese groups, such as live-in minders and a legal ban on owning kitchen knives; and (2) this is because of their religion. These two claims cannot both be true. Islam is one of the traditional religions of China, and it benefits from legal and social recognition not given to e.g. Christianity. You are free to make the argument that Western reporters are hallucinating or lying about what is happening to the Uyghurs. Or to make the argument that reports of the Uyghurs' oppression are accurate. But you can't make the argument that the reported oppression is due to religion, or that it's just another example of the same oppression that other groups experience. If you asked the Chinese, they'd tell you that Uyghur oppression comes from the Chinese not wanting to have their schools bombed.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      That might be true right now, but only a decade or two ago, Hui and Christians were subject to similar oppression. The legal ban on selling kitchen knives isn’t unusual to anyone who has lived in Beijing during a national conference. > You are free to make the argument that Western reporters are hallucinating or lying about what is happening to the Uyghurs. Again, that is not the point in dispute. My position is even more anti Chinese than the norm, that what is happening to the Uighurs is bad but just not unusual for China. Your argument against mine then is that things are actually better for the other groups, but you really don’t provide any evidence of that, and I can guarantee you that it’s not (other minorities, Tibetans especially, Christians, especially those outside the official church, Hui over the last decades, re education camps for everyone, etc…).
mlnj 5y ago
>So, those people were jailed for mocking the death of a politician, not for merely saying that cowdung does not cure covid. Again, not illegal to make fun of dead people.
- alex_smart 5y ago
  >Again, not illegal to make fun of dead people. In India? Who knows? Probably not NSA worthy, but I wouldn't bet against anything being illegal in India. I certainly know one person who was kept in jail for years for mocking one dead person (PBUH). That person did eventually get out on bail only to soon have his throat cut. But I guess that case ties into mocking religious feelings of a community (but then, so does this case). Also, I think you probably missed the part where I began and ended my comment by emphasizing that I think this is government misusing the laws to punish dissent.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    295AB are British laws, no one is making Indians keep them
    - alex_smart 5y ago
      I know?
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Depends on the country; in countries like North Korea it'll probably get you executed.
  - justshowpost 5y ago
    That's bad example, in North Chorea eating too much grass could get you executed as well.
- afiori 5y ago
  In many countries it is.
potamic 5y ago
It was done in poor taste indeed, but really blatant abuse of the National Security Act. This does appear to be more of a political move than anything. And there in lies the problem when such laws with broad interpretations go into effect, a government in power can leverage it to their gains. All they need is a technicality on which to trap someone.
- alex_smart 5y ago
  Actually, there is a much more sinister systematic problem underneath this, which imo makes this sort of political abuse of law to curtail dissent seem like a minor issue in comparison. India seems to have completely given up on any attempt to genuinely implement common law principles that judicial systems worldwide are based on. Instead of conviction and eventual prison being the goal (along with the presumption of innocence until conviction), our system seems to rely mainly on pre-conviction detention as a deterrent for criminal activities. All relevant participants in the system (namely the police, the judiciary, the criminals and the citizens) have given in and accepted the fact that convictions are hard and extremely rare to come by. Instead, the process itself is the punishment. The goal of the police is to keep everyone in jail for as long as they can. Judges also regularly deny bail to the accused when they think that there is some preliminary evidence. And the citizens also join in this game by asking for ever stringend laws that make getting bails difficult for more and more cases. (I think most people in India don't even realize that "non-bailable" is just supposed to mean that bail is not automatic, but to be given on the consideration of a magistrate.)
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Well, it seems like integration of J and K and Manipur finally worked itself out after all!
  - throwawayobvs 5y ago
    The most sinister issue here is that if india wasnt a key ally against china, pakistan and others in the region it would be called for what it is. It is anything but a “democracy”, and while not at the same level as china treats uighurs or burma its rohinga, india still have the dalit and a rather weird caste system. Also i highly doubt india’s government is democratically elected, given the huge numbers of people left behind and rampant corruption. A shame for a country with such rich history.
random314 5y ago
Nobody was mocked. The BJP leader claimed that cow dung cures covid19. He subsequently died of covid19. The one sentence post was a PSA that cow dung cures covid19. Nobody was mocked. If you want to see mocking in a free country go here https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/ . India is not a free country.
- alex_smart 5y ago
  >The BJP leader claimed that cow dung does not cure covid19. Source? >The one sentence post was a PSA that cow dung cures covid19. Nobody was mocked Now that is just dishonest. Both the posts are available on this link https://theprint.in/india/journalist-activist-jailed-under-nsa-for-45-days-over-cow-posts-in-manipur-its-not-unusual/684133/ https://theprint.in/india/journalist-activist-jailed-under-n... How is saying "Cow dung, cow urine didn’t work, oh!!! RIP" after someone's death not mocking them?
  - random314 5y ago
    Guess what https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/leichombam-erendro-supreme-court-says-manipur-based-activist-detained-under-national-security-act-after-facebook-post-must-be-released-by-5-pm-2489680 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/leichombam-erendro-supreme-c... The 37-year-old was held under the stringent National Security Act for saying "cow dung and cow urine don't work." While Solicitor General Tushar Mehta sought time and wanted the case to be adjourned till tomorrow, the judges ordered his immediate release. "We are of the view that the continued detention of the petitioner would amount to violation of right to life and personal liberty under Article 21. We direct him to be released today by 5 pm with a personal bond of ₹ 1,000," a two-judge bench of Justices DY Chandrachud and MR Shah said.
  - random314 5y ago
    Are you kidding me? “The cure for Corona is not cow dung & cow urine. The cure is science & common sense. Professor ji RIP,” Leichombam had written This is mocking? And mocking should lead to many months of nonbailabe arrest without trial? This is one of the most egregious examples of clamping down on free speech. The statement is true and helps educate citizens who are being misinformed nonstop by hindutva affiliates about cow urine. In a free country we can have forums like this https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/
intended 5y ago
For the record, this was what was written that got two people arrested: > Erendro wrote on his Facebook wall: “The cure for Corona is not cow dung & cow urine. The cure is science & commons sense. Professor ji RIP” and > Wangkhem wrote: “Santhi Sanyung na yadrabo, oh!!! RIP #Rashikang_Kangyet Hayeng nga chaani.” (Rough translation: Cow dung cow urine didn’t work. Groundless argument. Tomorrow I will eat fish.)

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> those people were jailed for mocking the death of a politician, not for merely saying that cowdung does not cure covid. > I mean, the reality is bad enough as it is. There is no need to exaggerate. You reminded me of how American commentary seems determined to push the obviously false claim that Uyghurs in China are being oppressed because of their religion, when it would be so much easier to defend the claim that they're being oppressed because of their race. (Even easier would be that they're being oppressed due to dissidence.) Most people are just repeating something they've heard, and couldn't analyze the merits of a claim if they wanted to.

alex_smart 5y ago
>Most people are just repeating something they've heard, and couldn't analyze the merits of a claim if they wanted to. This is something I have thought about a bit over last several years. A lot of people I trust to have good intentions seem to regularly indulge in untruths or exaggerations to rile up support for their cause. One particular example that comes to mind is how pretty much all liberal voices (including nobel peace prize winner Kalyan Sathyarthi) spread lies about a child labour bill in India that was passed in 2016. All of them were saying in unison that this bill was weakening the existing child labour laws and will allow all sort of child exploitation. So, I decided to read the bill and the original act that the bill was supposed to amend. I was stunned. There was absolutely no truth to the claims. The bill was actually making the child labour law much, much more stringend and I, even with my programmer in bug-fixing mode brain, couldn't conjure up a single hypothetical scenario where a child was forbidden from working earlier would now be allowed to work. So why were all these people lying? Why would Kalyan Sathyarthi, of all people, who has saved hundreds of thousands of children from child labour and trafficking, lie about something that pertains directly to his life's work? The only explanation I could think of is that perhaps the law didn't go as far enough or didn't include certain amendments as they wanted and this was their way of pressurizing the government to listen to them. But that still left a bad taste in my mouth. Perhaps this is something my brain, trained to value truth above everything else, isn't quite mature enough to understand.
- kevinwang 5y ago
  Never heard of it before, but just googled it and it looks like it introduced a new exemption for children to work for their families: https://thediplomat.com/2016/08/indias-new-child-labor-law-billed-to-fail/ https://thediplomat.com/2016/08/indias-new-child-labor-law-b...
  - alex_smart 5y ago
    Yes, I just told you that everybody was lying about the bill.
    - random314 5y ago
      No. The article goes against what you have been claiming. How did your programmer brain not see the flaws satyarthi is pointing out? Why such shoddy/research or comments on your part?
      - alex_smart 5y ago
        >The article goes against what you have been claiming. Not really, that article is an example of people spreading the lies. Perhaps it was not clear to you, but my claim in the previous comment was that a, pretty much all liberal voices were saying that bill would weaken the existing child labour laws and b, that all of them were lying. So the fact that you can find many such articles saying those things is not really inconsistent with my claim. >How did your programmer brain not see the flaws satyarthi is pointing out? Because they did not exist. Like I said, I read the bill and the law that the bill seeked to amend and found that there was not a single instance or way in which the bill would weaken the child labour law. In fact, in was very significantly strengthening the child labour law. Look, I know for you it is just one random person speaking on the internet vs hundreds of sources and people that you inherently trust. So, I can understand if your instinct is to not believe what I say and in that case you are welcome to just ignore me and move on. But if you actually want to get to the bottom of this, then please do read the bill (now act) and the original law, and you will find that I am right. All you would need to prove me wrong will be a single example, however hypothetical or far-fetched, of a situation in which it was earlier forbidden for a child to work that would have been allowed under the new bill.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
But Uighurs are being oppressed due to religion, it’s just the generic religious oppression that China applies to everyone. Heck, even if racism and dissidence wasn’t involved, there is still oppression that is or was rather common in the rest of China (eg re-education work camps weren’t invented in Xinjiang). There is plenty of room for both sides to play on technical truths, perhaps the same is happening in India (I have no idea).
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > But Uighurs are being oppressed due to religion, it’s just the generic religious oppression that China applies to everyone. Reporting claims that (1) the Uyghurs are suffering under much more oppression than other Chinese groups, such as live-in minders and a legal ban on owning kitchen knives; and (2) this is because of their religion. These two claims cannot both be true. Islam is one of the traditional religions of China, and it benefits from legal and social recognition not given to e.g. Christianity. You are free to make the argument that Western reporters are hallucinating or lying about what is happening to the Uyghurs. Or to make the argument that reports of the Uyghurs' oppression are accurate. But you can't make the argument that the reported oppression is due to religion, or that it's just another example of the same oppression that other groups experience. If you asked the Chinese, they'd tell you that Uyghur oppression comes from the Chinese not wanting to have their schools bombed.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    That might be true right now, but only a decade or two ago, Hui and Christians were subject to similar oppression. The legal ban on selling kitchen knives isn’t unusual to anyone who has lived in Beijing during a national conference. > You are free to make the argument that Western reporters are hallucinating or lying about what is happening to the Uyghurs. Again, that is not the point in dispute. My position is even more anti Chinese than the norm, that what is happening to the Uighurs is bad but just not unusual for China. Your argument against mine then is that things are actually better for the other groups, but you really don’t provide any evidence of that, and I can guarantee you that it’s not (other minorities, Tibetans especially, Christians, especially those outside the official church, Hui over the last decades, re education camps for everyone, etc…).

mlnj 5y ago

>So, those people were jailed for mocking the death of a politician, not for merely saying that cowdung does not cure covid. Again, not illegal to make fun of dead people.

alex_smart 5y ago
>Again, not illegal to make fun of dead people. In India? Who knows? Probably not NSA worthy, but I wouldn't bet against anything being illegal in India. I certainly know one person who was kept in jail for years for mocking one dead person (PBUH). That person did eventually get out on bail only to soon have his throat cut. But I guess that case ties into mocking religious feelings of a community (but then, so does this case). Also, I think you probably missed the part where I began and ended my comment by emphasizing that I think this is government misusing the laws to punish dissent.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  295AB are British laws, no one is making Indians keep them
  - alex_smart 5y ago
    I know?
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Depends on the country; in countries like North Korea it'll probably get you executed.
- justshowpost 5y ago
  That's bad example, in North Chorea eating too much grass could get you executed as well.
afiori 5y ago
In many countries it is.

potamic 5y ago

It was done in poor taste indeed, but really blatant abuse of the National Security Act. This does appear to be more of a political move than anything. And there in lies the problem when such laws with broad interpretations go into effect, a government in power can leverage it to their gains. All they need is a technicality on which to trap someone.

alex_smart 5y ago
Actually, there is a much more sinister systematic problem underneath this, which imo makes this sort of political abuse of law to curtail dissent seem like a minor issue in comparison. India seems to have completely given up on any attempt to genuinely implement common law principles that judicial systems worldwide are based on. Instead of conviction and eventual prison being the goal (along with the presumption of innocence until conviction), our system seems to rely mainly on pre-conviction detention as a deterrent for criminal activities. All relevant participants in the system (namely the police, the judiciary, the criminals and the citizens) have given in and accepted the fact that convictions are hard and extremely rare to come by. Instead, the process itself is the punishment. The goal of the police is to keep everyone in jail for as long as they can. Judges also regularly deny bail to the accused when they think that there is some preliminary evidence. And the citizens also join in this game by asking for ever stringend laws that make getting bails difficult for more and more cases. (I think most people in India don't even realize that "non-bailable" is just supposed to mean that bail is not automatic, but to be given on the consideration of a magistrate.)
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Well, it seems like integration of J and K and Manipur finally worked itself out after all!
- throwawayobvs 5y ago
  The most sinister issue here is that if india wasnt a key ally against china, pakistan and others in the region it would be called for what it is. It is anything but a “democracy”, and while not at the same level as china treats uighurs or burma its rohinga, india still have the dalit and a rather weird caste system. Also i highly doubt india’s government is democratically elected, given the huge numbers of people left behind and rampant corruption. A shame for a country with such rich history.

random314 5y ago

Nobody was mocked. The BJP leader claimed that cow dung cures covid19. He subsequently died of covid19. The one sentence post was a PSA that cow dung cures covid19. Nobody was mocked. If you want to see mocking in a free country go here https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/ . India is not a free country.

alex_smart 5y ago
>The BJP leader claimed that cow dung does not cure covid19. Source? >The one sentence post was a PSA that cow dung cures covid19. Nobody was mocked Now that is just dishonest. Both the posts are available on this link https://theprint.in/india/journalist-activist-jailed-under-nsa-for-45-days-over-cow-posts-in-manipur-its-not-unusual/684133/ https://theprint.in/india/journalist-activist-jailed-under-n... How is saying "Cow dung, cow urine didn’t work, oh!!! RIP" after someone's death not mocking them?
- random314 5y ago
  Guess what https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/leichombam-erendro-supreme-court-says-manipur-based-activist-detained-under-national-security-act-after-facebook-post-must-be-released-by-5-pm-2489680 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/leichombam-erendro-supreme-c... The 37-year-old was held under the stringent National Security Act for saying "cow dung and cow urine don't work." While Solicitor General Tushar Mehta sought time and wanted the case to be adjourned till tomorrow, the judges ordered his immediate release. "We are of the view that the continued detention of the petitioner would amount to violation of right to life and personal liberty under Article 21. We direct him to be released today by 5 pm with a personal bond of ₹ 1,000," a two-judge bench of Justices DY Chandrachud and MR Shah said.
- random314 5y ago
  Are you kidding me? “The cure for Corona is not cow dung & cow urine. The cure is science & common sense. Professor ji RIP,” Leichombam had written This is mocking? And mocking should lead to many months of nonbailabe arrest without trial? This is one of the most egregious examples of clamping down on free speech. The statement is true and helps educate citizens who are being misinformed nonstop by hindutva affiliates about cow urine. In a free country we can have forums like this https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/

intended 5y ago

For the record, this was what was written that got two people arrested: > Erendro wrote on his Facebook wall: “The cure for Corona is not cow dung & cow urine. The cure is science & commons sense. Professor ji RIP” and > Wangkhem wrote: “Santhi Sanyung na yadrabo, oh!!! RIP #Rashikang_Kangyet Hayeng nga chaani.” (Rough translation: Cow dung cow urine didn’t work. Groundless argument. Tomorrow I will eat fish.)