13 ms·
Student designs device that stops blood loss from stab wounds
- ChrisGranger 5y agoI get a 404 error for this link. Here's one that's working for me: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-57692160 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-57692160
- dang 5y agoChanged to that from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-57692160.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-5769216.... Thanks!
- polishdude20 5y agoAnyone got more info on this? It seems there's a balloon that is inflated into the wound. It also talked about the benefit of not pulling out the clot when the balloon is removed. Is it because the material won't stick to blood clots?
- JshWright 5y agoYeah, the current technique (which, IMO, is still the way to go) uses gauze, which the clot will form around. It's difficult/impossible to remove that gauze without removing at least some of the clot and causing some bleeding. At that point though, they're already in the OR, and that bleeding is generally fairly easily managed w/ the right equipment.
- ineedasername 5y agois still the way to go According to the writeup, that is less effective for some wound locations. I'm no expert to be able evaluate that claim though. Otherwise the main advantage here seems time-to-deploy, as it may be faster than wound packing, and it may be more user-friendly for police first on the scene before paramedics show up. That said, this is far from a finished product. It's only a partial prototype, and it looks like there will need to be a lot of testing on a different wound shapes & depths & locations to calibrate the appropriate pressure in each case.
- JshWright 5y agoI haven't seen any data on how effective this is, or if it would be more effective than wound packing. I'd be very surprised if it worked any better for abdominal wounds (it has the same problem... there is nothing to compress against, and the abdomen can just keep expanding and organs can shift out of the way). I would also be suspicious of any "net" time-to-deploy improvements. Z-Fold gauze is small and light enough that it lives in the trauma bag, and I will definitely have it with me upon arrival to a stabbing patient. Given the relative rarity of stab wound where this would be useful (even simply as a percentage of all stab wounds), I think it's likely it wouldn't be grabbed by default, which means a trip back to the rig to get it. Obviously, take my opinion with a grain of salt... All the info I have about this is from this single article, and EMS is notoriously suspicious of change and "new shiny".
- ineedasername 5y agoIs gauze packing like this something that a typically trained police officer could do? If not, that might be the main benefit of the device. Otherwise, yeah, I guess an EMS that deals with these issues regularly may have the process down well enough that speed isn't the issue. Also curious, because I know nothing about trauma wounds like this. I know I'm wrong, but I don't know why: Could you use tissue glue to seal the edges? It seems like that's what would happen in surgery for a permanent "fix" anyway, so doing it temporarily in the field, with the edges adhering to themselves, would reduce the need for compression.
- JshWright 5y agoYeah, cops (at least around here) generally know how to pack a wound. It's not terribly hard (you're just repeatedly shoving your finger in the hole, stuffing a bit more gauze in there each time). The external wound isn't the issue, and that's really the only thing that you could practically "glue" in the field. The issue is the artery inside that's spurting blood (and even if none of that blood actually escapes the body, there's more than enough room to lose enough blood inside the body to kill someone. The surgical intervention will involve opening up the area of the wound a bit further so that you can actually find the hole in the artery and have room to work. Once the specific location of the bleed has been found, generally a clamp will be applied "upstream" of the bleed, which will then be stitched closed (ideally reattaching it to the other end if it was severed completely). Glue isn't going to hold up against arterial pressure.
- hnick 5y agoIn my first aid course in Australia the teacher told us we are not allowed to be taught wound packing and that if anyone asks we didn't learn it - before telling us about it. He'd been in the military where it might see some use and apparently wound packing is also recommended in the US, but over here I guess it's needed rarely enough that teaching everyone might cause more harm than good.
- jackson1442 5y agoIt might also be because it was a part of a "first aid" course and not a more professional course or certification. In my lifeguard certification here in the states, for example, they explicitly don't train on tourniquets because we had an on-site EMT that would do the more dramatic procedures like that before an ambulance arrived. Tourniquets are definitely a last-resort measure and an untrained provider using one can certainly cause more harm than good, so it was omitted from training at our level. The same might apply to wound packing- knowing _when_ to use it is harder to teach than _how_ so many people don't understand when it is appropriate, which could be dangerous.
- hnick 5y agoIt was accredited, the type of course you get told to do if you have certain responsibilities like volunteer teaching a class where it might be necessary, or the sort of thing you need a few people per floor to have at work for OHS. I assume people who make a career about it get more into the advanced topics. Being in Australia, we covered snakes, spiders, and jellyfish more than some countries would, while gunshot trauma wasn't really mentioned in a large amount of detail.
- JshWright 5y ago> Tourniquets are definitely a last-resort measure and an untrained provider using one can certainly cause more harm than good This is a bit of a stigma that is starting to get cleared up. Tourniquets should be a "first resort" for significant bleeding in a limb that can't be easily controlled with direct pressure. Protocols used to involve all sorts of additional things to try (elevate the limb, use pressure points, apply more dressings/pressure, etc). Now it's "Squeeze the wound with gauze and a gloved hand. Did it stop? No? Apply a tourniquet." Assuming someone gets to a hospital within a reasonable period of time (where "reasonable" is "within a couple hours"), there is very little risk in applying a tourniquet.
- JshWright 5y agoThis has some advantages over the existing technique (packing w/ hemostatic z-fold gauze), but some big disadvantages. It's a pretty bulky device, and space is at a premium on an ambulance. It also has a battery that needs to be maintained. I'm not sure a bulky device that needs routine maintenance (everything with a battery gets checked at least once a day in every ambulance service I've ever worked with) is worth carrying for very rare events. A couple packs of z-fold gauze take up as much room as a few decks of playing cards and would only need to get checked monthly (to see if they had expired). Even in a place where stabbings are "common", this device is only useful in a specific subset of stabbings where wound packing can be used. If wound is in the torso/abdomen, this device isn't useful (there's nothing to press against), and if it's in a limb, a tourniquet is the right tool for the job.
- polishdude20 5y agoOne possible fix is to not have a battery at all. Make it a hand pump.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoIs there not existing pressure onboard an ambulance from oxygen supply? Or perhaps a compressor air line from the suspension system? I do like the falling back to a hand pump solution, similar to the bags used for providing artificial respiration [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_valve_mask https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_valve_mask
- nextaccountic 5y agoAt my last ambulance ride I noticed there were separate lines for oxygen and also for regular compressed air, which I suppose is pretty much infinite (the ambulance can gather more air as it is used)
- JshWright 5y agoI've never seen compressed air on an ambulance in the US (not to say it isn't a thing, I just haven't seen it). Ambulances are generally plumbed for oxygen and a vacuum system for suction.
- ineedasername 5y agoGetting a 404 right now. Here's a working link: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-57692160 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-57692160
- dang 5y agoChanged to that from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-57692160.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-5769216.... Thanks!
- sandworm101 5y agoNot the first use of a balloon to control bleeding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakri_balloon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakri_balloon
- ineedasername 5y agoHis project is part of a cohort of cap stone design projects [0]. Browsing through them gives some real insight into current societal zeitgeist: A very large portion of them are related to health/medical issues, with a sizeable subset of those dealing with declining functionality due to aging. [0] https://sdcashow2021.lboro.ac.uk/courses/product-design/ https://sdcashow2021.lboro.ac.uk/courses/product-design/
- macintux 5y agoGrowing up, nearly all the women in my extended family on both sides were in education. Now, it’s predominantly health care. My standard joke when I meet someone studying to be a doctor or nurse is that in another 20-30 years, everyone will either work at or be in a hospital. Or both.
- stuartbman 5y agoThis represents the current research interest in the UK nicely. There is currently a wide gap between lifespan and 'healthspan'- the duration in which someone is independent and healthy. This leads to high care costs, and combined with an ageing population is a recipe for economic disaster. If we can e.g. prevent decline in muscle strength (sarcopenia) we can potentially help people to live independently for longer (this is my own research focus)
- et2o 5y agoThis is a actually a pretty good idea. Later on the maybe can impregnate the balloon with helpful molecules… I’m struggling to think right now what would be most appropriate. Pro-thrombotic molecules might work but might also have negatives (eg clot adhesion). One comment said charging is a big downside; I don’t really agree. It could just as easily be corded or hand-powered. We use hand powered balloons all the time (eg in angioplasty), admittedly not as large but also likely at far higher pressures than would be required for simple hemostasis. The (potentially very big) problem is that wounds are not always circular or even ovoid like a balloon might be. With gauze you can pack down into whatever shape you are presented with and fill the space, causing hemostasis. With a ballon, you probably cannot. That difference could actually be very important. Think of it as the space-filling resolution of the technique. It also doesn’t take that long to pack a wound, so I don’t think that is a huge advantage with this device.
- ineedasername 5y agoSome type of integrated antiseptic agent would also be useful.
- et2o 5y agoTotally, that’s an even better idea probably.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y agoEh, if you have this thing in you, you are going to a hospital and they’re about to inject you with a ton of antibiotics. My EMT teachers taught the book, and also taught the reality. Do what you have to do, use what you have to use, worry about germs (for them) later.
- ineedasername 5y agoThanks. Always good to have an insider's perspective on things. It's what's great about HN. Sure most of us can spend 10 minutes getting up to speed on the very basics of even complex topics, but the community also attracts lots of people with actual deep knowledge in areas outside of what you'd expect from a community ostensibly geared towards startup tech & culture.
- mellosouls 5y agoIt would be useful to know what the significance of this is - the inventor himself calls it a game changer, but the only expert quoted acknowledges there are plenty of interesting ideas out there that need to go through trials. The lack of context for why this particular idea is a headline story (beyond "knife crime") is frustrating.
- giantg2 5y agoI guess when "gun violence" is low enough, then "knife crime" becomes the new "gun violence".
- tomrod 5y agoThis is correct, and ultimately a preferable outcome to guns. There are two causal factors for gun violence -- access to guns, and desire to cause destruction. With knives, your arms quite literally will tire out. Still not a GOOD outcome, but is the best to be expected when only one causal factor is blocked. Blocking the other is probably beyond the scope of policy generally, but decreasing it may be possibly impacted by social policies encouraging people's proclivity towards violence.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago> [Knife use] ultimately a preferable outcome to guns. Not if you are one of the hundred million people who have guns for defense it’s not. There is no better equalizer for the physically small or weak or elderly or disabled than a firearm. >There are two causal factors for gun violence -- access to guns, and desire to cause destruction Yes, where tool is available, people use it as intended and not. Firearms are used almost exclusively for legal defense, as frustrating as that may be to people who think the tool is the problem, and just banning the idol will abate the evil spirits. > With knives, your arms quite literally will tire out. This is not written by someone with edged weapons training. An actual fact of knife use from someone does is if you use a knife, you can EXPECT to be cut yourself. > encouraging people's proclivity towards violence. That’s interesting. If we look at the statistics of gun violence, would you be helpful and make more generalizations on who these people who have a “proclivity towards violence” are?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- aaron695 5y agoSuch an UK invention / media article. Reminds me of 4Chans weekly review of bin fires reported by the UK media. Random fact acid attacks are mostly against men. Although it's somewhat equal around the world the UK where it's one of the highest rates tips it to men. (Like all stats the different NGO's argue this differently)
- newguy886 5y agoWe need this in Europe. Many stab wounds due to the last sandnigger storms.
- dang 5y agoWe've banned this account. Abusing HN will get your main account banned as well, so please don't do any more of this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rbrbr 5y ago..“page cannot be found“
- IncRnd 5y agoURL appears to have been subtly changed. Try this one. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-57692160 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-57692160
- TedShiller 5y agoNYC subways should stock these devices, similar to how airports have defibrillators