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Ships transiting the canal are required to have an Egyptian pilot on the bridge. Why isn't it more correct to say that that pilot blocked the canal using the s

Ships transiting the canal are required to have an Egyptian pilot on the bridge. Why isn't it more correct to say that that pilot blocked the canal using the ship? It seems like Egypt is just taking advantage of the situation and their canal monopoly.

renewiltord 5y ago
Because it’s like your tax return. Tax lawyers can do whatever they want so they will prepare your return and you’ll still take the fall for it all if they fucked it up. It’s just a question of who is the whipper and who is the whippee.
ceejayoz 5y ago
I'd thought the ship lost power - which wouldn't have been the pilot's fault - but it looks like that early claim got retracted.
- Freestyler_3 5y ago
  Last I heard it was two pilots, one junior and a senior. The senior said to go faster because they were losing control, the junior disagreed because it would be way above max. speed (but a ship this big needs a lot more speed to deal with wind) so they argued and the captain didn't make a decision. Then it all went down slowly without being able to do anything about it.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    "Enough speed" Steerageway - enough speed for the rudder to work. There's a reason you don't have two captains on a ship, even when there is an admiral on board. Having two pilots seems to be a bad pattern.
    - alexeldeib 5y ago
      Ironic, considering the opposite is true for planes. Although I do believe only one is typically in control/“pilot” at any given time. Not to mention autopilot and flying vs shipping conditions
      - laurent92 5y ago
        If you know anything about it: - Do you think the shipping culture has lower standards about working together, as catastrophes are less traumatic and thus, there is much less public pressure into having clean responsibilities? - Do you think the shipping industry would benefit from the pilots’ CRM, a mandatory training introduced in the 1970 to better manage moods and teamplay between pilots?
        nradov 5y ago
        Many shipping companies have adopted "bridge resource management" practices, adapted from the aviation industry. They do work when used but there are still many small companies with inadequate crew training and a lack of professionalism.
      - redis_mlc 5y ago
        > Ironic, considering the opposite is true for planes. Although I do believe only one is typically in control/“pilot” at any given time. In US civilian flying, one is the pilot flying and the other is the pilot non-flying (usually operates radios, etc.) They usually alternate landings. Pilots study Cockpit Resource Management (CRM) to improve communications. The Pilot in Command (PIC) is responsible for the flight (not ATC.) Airplanes can be towed on the ground. Not sure how responsibility is assigned. It's pretty common for wingtips to collide during ground-handling, which grounds both planes.
        redis_mlc 5y ago
        I did a search and it looks like airline ground collisions are usually resolved via the courts. The towing company in one case with Virgin Airlines tried to muddy the waters with "no specific airplane model training" and "not enough lighting", which the judge laughed at since if an airplane towing company can't tow an airplane, what's the point of using them? FYI: a wingtip strike can cost a few million dollars to fix, plus the cost of grounding (AOG) for weeks or months, which is more millions, for an airliner. With small airplanes, most flight schools don't charge for AOG, but in the cases I've heard of, the loss of use was more than the repair bill and probably ended the student's career. The numbers were in the range of $5,000 in repairs and $10,000 - $20,000 for loss of use.
    - CalChris 5y ago
      There are two pilots because the transit takes 11-12 hours.
RegnisGnaw 5y ago
The captain is always in command and is responsible for the ship. The pilots assume command with the approval of the captain only. The captain can withdraw the approval at any time. Holland America has an good FAQ on this topic: https://www.hollandamerica.com/blog/technical/what-does-the-pilot-do/ https://www.hollandamerica.com/blog/technical/what-does-the-...
- perl4ever 5y ago
  In the article the spokesperson for the insurer is quoted as saying: "It is important to clarify that whilst the master is ultimately responsible for the vessel, navigation in the canal transit within a convoy is controlled by the Suez Canal pilots and SCA vessel traffic management services. Such controls include the speed of the transit and the availability of escort tugs." In other words, they do not accept that the simple rule of the captain being responsible for the ship is all there is to it, case closed. I'm not saying they are/were right or wrong, just that they are not a random pseudonymous person on the internet who's ignorant of the shipping industry and can be dismissed the same way.
  - skeeter2020 5y ago
    Isn't that exactly what they are saying? It was in response to the SCA statement about how the ship was going too fast and inadequately controllable; they responded that while the responsibility ultimately lies with the captain, he was under the guidance of SCA staff and tugs for speed and piloting, not a drunk teenager whom they had no influence over, which is how the SCA has tried to frame this from the beginning.
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      Isn't what exactly what who is saying? The insurer seemed to be acknowledging that the formal rule about the captain exists, while claiming that's not the end of the discussion about responsibility. That suggests to me that quoting the rulebook isn't really an adequate response to the original question of why isn't it the pilot's fault. It's the position of the SCA, by definition. I guess we will never know though, what was agreed on, because it was settled in private.
chrisseaton 5y ago
Whatever the ship does, it's ultimately the captain's responsibility.
krisoft 5y ago
> Why isn't it more correct to say that that pilot blocked the canal using the ship? It doesn't matter. The Suez Canal Authority - Rules of Navigation Article 4, section 7: “(7) Owners, mobilizers, charterers and/or operators bind themselves responsible for any mistakes resulting from pilot’s advice or arrise by SCA personnel.” https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/Navigation/Pages/RulesofNavigation.aspx https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/Navigation/Pages/Ruleso.... > It seems like Egypt is just taking advantage of the situation and their canal monopoly. Yes.
Lammy 5y ago
> their canal monopoly An alternative is technically possible since Israel has contiguous territory between the Mediterranean and Red Sea: https://www.businessinsider.in/science/news/the-us-had-a-plan-in-the-1960s-to-blast-an-alternative-suez-canal-through-israel-using-520-nuclear-bombs/articleshow/81690122.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/science/news/the-us-had-a-pla...
- baybal2 5y ago
  The straight of Tiran, and Aqaba are still largely under Egyptian control.
  - gpt5 5y ago
    The straight of Tiran are open to all ship traffic. Last time Egypt tried to impose a blockade on them, Israel considered it as an act of war which resulted in the six day war (where Egypt lost control of all the Sinai peninsula up to the Suez Canal. Aqaba is a Jordanian port.
    - marc__1 5y ago
      For those curious, the list of books that cover the geopolitics of the Suez Canal (way before the current one) is extensive and include: Blood and Sand: Suez, Hungary, and Eisenhower's Campaign for Peace The Suez Crisis: The History of the Suez Canal’s Nationalization by Egypt and the War that Followed 1948: The First Arab-Israeli War
      - austhrow743 5y ago
        Read all three? Have a favourite?
- ben_w 5y ago
  A plan which involves 520 nukes of 2 megatons each, putting it roughly in the same ball park as some of the Project Orion proposals. I mean, you might accidentally solve the Middle East peace process if nobody wants to live there any more, but I don’t think it will be a popular solution to either that or the Suez monopoly…
prawn 5y ago
Not sure if this is at all useful/interesting information, but I was a photographer on a cruise ship 5-6 weeks ago and happened to be in/on/at (?) the bridge as we were approaching to dock after a 10-night trip. There were two pilots that had boarded the ship some way out and were with the captain and another crew member at all times. The senior pilot gave constant instructions/advice but at no point did they ever touch controls. The captain in this case was very deferential but I'm not sure if that would be common in the situation or because he was introverted or that he was less familiar with that port.
- fouc 5y ago
  on
pyuser583 5y ago
Panama Canal is similar. The pilot is technically an advisor. Command rests with the Captain.

renewiltord 5y ago

Because it’s like your tax return. Tax lawyers can do whatever they want so they will prepare your return and you’ll still take the fall for it all if they fucked it up. It’s just a question of who is the whipper and who is the whippee.

ceejayoz 5y ago

I'd thought the ship lost power - which wouldn't have been the pilot's fault - but it looks like that early claim got retracted.

Freestyler_3 5y ago
Last I heard it was two pilots, one junior and a senior. The senior said to go faster because they were losing control, the junior disagreed because it would be way above max. speed (but a ship this big needs a lot more speed to deal with wind) so they argued and the captain didn't make a decision. Then it all went down slowly without being able to do anything about it.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  "Enough speed" Steerageway - enough speed for the rudder to work. There's a reason you don't have two captains on a ship, even when there is an admiral on board. Having two pilots seems to be a bad pattern.
  - alexeldeib 5y ago
    Ironic, considering the opposite is true for planes. Although I do believe only one is typically in control/“pilot” at any given time. Not to mention autopilot and flying vs shipping conditions
    - laurent92 5y ago
      If you know anything about it: - Do you think the shipping culture has lower standards about working together, as catastrophes are less traumatic and thus, there is much less public pressure into having clean responsibilities? - Do you think the shipping industry would benefit from the pilots’ CRM, a mandatory training introduced in the 1970 to better manage moods and teamplay between pilots?
      - nradov 5y ago
        Many shipping companies have adopted "bridge resource management" practices, adapted from the aviation industry. They do work when used but there are still many small companies with inadequate crew training and a lack of professionalism.
    - redis_mlc 5y ago
      > Ironic, considering the opposite is true for planes. Although I do believe only one is typically in control/“pilot” at any given time. In US civilian flying, one is the pilot flying and the other is the pilot non-flying (usually operates radios, etc.) They usually alternate landings. Pilots study Cockpit Resource Management (CRM) to improve communications. The Pilot in Command (PIC) is responsible for the flight (not ATC.) Airplanes can be towed on the ground. Not sure how responsibility is assigned. It's pretty common for wingtips to collide during ground-handling, which grounds both planes.
      - redis_mlc 5y ago
        I did a search and it looks like airline ground collisions are usually resolved via the courts. The towing company in one case with Virgin Airlines tried to muddy the waters with "no specific airplane model training" and "not enough lighting", which the judge laughed at since if an airplane towing company can't tow an airplane, what's the point of using them? FYI: a wingtip strike can cost a few million dollars to fix, plus the cost of grounding (AOG) for weeks or months, which is more millions, for an airliner. With small airplanes, most flight schools don't charge for AOG, but in the cases I've heard of, the loss of use was more than the repair bill and probably ended the student's career. The numbers were in the range of $5,000 in repairs and $10,000 - $20,000 for loss of use.
  - CalChris 5y ago
    There are two pilots because the transit takes 11-12 hours.

RegnisGnaw 5y ago

The captain is always in command and is responsible for the ship. The pilots assume command with the approval of the captain only. The captain can withdraw the approval at any time. Holland America has an good FAQ on this topic: https://www.hollandamerica.com/blog/technical/what-does-the-pilot-do/ https://www.hollandamerica.com/blog/technical/what-does-the-...

perl4ever 5y ago
In the article the spokesperson for the insurer is quoted as saying: "It is important to clarify that whilst the master is ultimately responsible for the vessel, navigation in the canal transit within a convoy is controlled by the Suez Canal pilots and SCA vessel traffic management services. Such controls include the speed of the transit and the availability of escort tugs." In other words, they do not accept that the simple rule of the captain being responsible for the ship is all there is to it, case closed. I'm not saying they are/were right or wrong, just that they are not a random pseudonymous person on the internet who's ignorant of the shipping industry and can be dismissed the same way.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  Isn't that exactly what they are saying? It was in response to the SCA statement about how the ship was going too fast and inadequately controllable; they responded that while the responsibility ultimately lies with the captain, he was under the guidance of SCA staff and tugs for speed and piloting, not a drunk teenager whom they had no influence over, which is how the SCA has tried to frame this from the beginning.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    Isn't what exactly what who is saying? The insurer seemed to be acknowledging that the formal rule about the captain exists, while claiming that's not the end of the discussion about responsibility. That suggests to me that quoting the rulebook isn't really an adequate response to the original question of why isn't it the pilot's fault. It's the position of the SCA, by definition. I guess we will never know though, what was agreed on, because it was settled in private.

chrisseaton 5y ago

Whatever the ship does, it's ultimately the captain's responsibility.

krisoft 5y ago

> Why isn't it more correct to say that that pilot blocked the canal using the ship? It doesn't matter. The Suez Canal Authority - Rules of Navigation Article 4, section 7: “(7) Owners, mobilizers, charterers and/or operators bind themselves responsible for any mistakes resulting from pilot’s advice or arrise by SCA personnel.” https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/Navigation/Pages/RulesofNavigation.aspx https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/Navigation/Pages/Ruleso.... > It seems like Egypt is just taking advantage of the situation and their canal monopoly. Yes.

Lammy 5y ago

> their canal monopoly An alternative is technically possible since Israel has contiguous territory between the Mediterranean and Red Sea: https://www.businessinsider.in/science/news/the-us-had-a-plan-in-the-1960s-to-blast-an-alternative-suez-canal-through-israel-using-520-nuclear-bombs/articleshow/81690122.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/science/news/the-us-had-a-pla...

baybal2 5y ago
The straight of Tiran, and Aqaba are still largely under Egyptian control.
- gpt5 5y ago
  The straight of Tiran are open to all ship traffic. Last time Egypt tried to impose a blockade on them, Israel considered it as an act of war which resulted in the six day war (where Egypt lost control of all the Sinai peninsula up to the Suez Canal. Aqaba is a Jordanian port.
  - marc__1 5y ago
    For those curious, the list of books that cover the geopolitics of the Suez Canal (way before the current one) is extensive and include: Blood and Sand: Suez, Hungary, and Eisenhower's Campaign for Peace The Suez Crisis: The History of the Suez Canal’s Nationalization by Egypt and the War that Followed 1948: The First Arab-Israeli War
    - austhrow743 5y ago
      Read all three? Have a favourite?
ben_w 5y ago
A plan which involves 520 nukes of 2 megatons each, putting it roughly in the same ball park as some of the Project Orion proposals. I mean, you might accidentally solve the Middle East peace process if nobody wants to live there any more, but I don’t think it will be a popular solution to either that or the Suez monopoly…

prawn 5y ago

Not sure if this is at all useful/interesting information, but I was a photographer on a cruise ship 5-6 weeks ago and happened to be in/on/at (?) the bridge as we were approaching to dock after a 10-night trip. There were two pilots that had boarded the ship some way out and were with the captain and another crew member at all times. The senior pilot gave constant instructions/advice but at no point did they ever touch controls. The captain in this case was very deferential but I'm not sure if that would be common in the situation or because he was introverted or that he was less familiar with that port.

fouc 5y ago
on

pyuser583 5y ago

Panama Canal is similar. The pilot is technically an advisor. Command rests with the Captain.