5 ms·

Prop 47 and SF's "criminals are oppressed by society" approach to crime are to blame here. You can't get the grunts to roll on the bosses if all you can charge

Prop 47 and SF's "criminals are oppressed by society" approach to crime are to blame here. You can't get the grunts to roll on the bosses if all you can charge them with is a misdemeanor, and you can't get police to even arrest thieves if the DA refuses to prosecute. This doesn't happen in other big cities like NYC, Boston, Chicago, etc.

decremental 5y ago
NYC isn't big on prosecuting crime and Chicago is basically the most dangerous place on Earth to live. There is something in common with all of these places.
FreeSpeech 5y ago
It's unbelievable the amount of depravity a single DA can inflict. An unprecedented number of companies and workers are fleeing the city. San Francisco is set to become the next Detroit. What's your exit plan?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > San Francisco is set to become the next Detroit This is hyperbole. The Bay Area remains an economic dynamo. San Francisco’s culinary and cultural credentials remain largely untouched. It’s a safe city to be rich around, and that will continue to be the case for the near future. The distinction important. Threatening the city’s economic elite with ruin is a red herring. Contrast that with Detroit, where the city’s economic elite were directly threatened. That threat forced change, by changing opinions and replacing decision makers. That pressure has been inhibited in San Francisco by its continuing ability to generate wealth independent of its problems.
  - epicureanideal 5y ago
    I don't know about those culinary credentials... other large cities have similar amounts of variety and quality, and a lot better parking and less homeless addicts near the restaurants. Can you give me some examples of cultural credentials?
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > Can you give me some examples of cultural credentials? San Francisco has a large number of Michelin-rated restaurants. Their clientele are largely insulated from these issues. It also has a large number of independent theatres and performance and exhibition spaces. One of the city’s problems is its elites can live quite well independent of reality on the ground. That’s essential to the political problem, and why claims that San Francisco is going the way of Detroit can be distracting or even harmfully mollifying. This is not a system that will self stabilise.
      - epicureanideal 5y ago
        I live nearby and I'm pretty sure I've never eaten at one, despite being able to afford to. I don't think most people select the place they live based on the number of literally Michelin-rated restaurants. I imagine it's more like, do they have reasonable quality international food with say a dozen national varieties, and if they do, that's probably a checkmark on the food option. Personally, I'd rather have low crime, clean streets, cheap housing, and a good environment for family formation. Anything else can be found on the weekend, even if that means a car ride or a plane trip.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - sologoub 5y ago
        The “elite” part of SF are getting hit all the same - you can’t leave a car parked in pacific heights or cow hollow without risking a break-in. Friends resort to leaving cars unlocked, windows down, just to try and avoid more broken windows or other damage. You can’t really insulate yourself from the situation on the streets you have to walk/drive. Comparatively, NYC has better food and culture scenes. LA has excellent food scene as well with arguably better regional varieties and beach is way better. What SF really has are proximity to great jobs and reputation/network of SV. So long as these hold, people will continue to tolerate the many issues. This is where comparison with Detroit is not that outlandish - Detroit was once the place to be for good paying automotive jobs. In those days, real estate was booming and prices were high for their day. If you take away to tech booms, there is still a lot to like - nature, weather, aforementioned food/culture stuff. Unfortunately, that’s offset by issues discussed here, as well as huge amounts of pollution and superfunds, so without the great jobs/industry, it might get a lot less appealing quickly.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    The problem is that if you are rich, there is very little that SF has that you can't find in any large city or that you can't visit/travel to. But sidewalks filled with feces, public spaces soaked in urine and covered with disposed needles are truly unique. People lying around naked in the streets or walking around without pants or underwear, screaming at the air, dragging blankets around them right in the middle of Columbus avenue by the transamerica building -- that's something that truly distinguishes san francisco and is now what the city is known for. I was in Pabu and saw a man take off his pants and defecate in the flower pots in the public space on california and market. While some wealthy people may not care, I would assume many more want a different dining experience.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      I agree. I don’t live in San Francisco. But assuming some self correction through economic ruin is, in my view, optimistic. The current situation can sustain itself for longer than those comparing San Francisco to Detroit might think.
      - FreeSpeech 5y ago
        Tech is already in the cloud. SF workers are already remote. The exit is already under way. The current situation is the definition of unsustainable.
      - rsj_hn 5y ago
        People expecting some kind of judgement or cost to be levied on the city for its foolish ethics and reckless policies are forgetting that the quality of life issues are the cost. There is no further punishment needed. You want to pretend every homeless person is a victim worthy of massive subsidies and a blind eye by the police? Fine, you will have a city overrun with homeless and streets filled with feces. Trying to predict how many people are willing to put up with these costs in order to build their ideal utopia is a risky enteprise. As Neitszche said, man can bear any how as long as he knows the why. The majority of SF voters are convinced that they are being moral by tolerating this behavior and so they are prepared to bear the burden of living with what they tolerate. In the big picture, this is nothing compared to the human costs of other utopian projects we've tried in the 20th century, so I don't think the voters of SF have reached anything close to peak disgust. Feces and an epidemic of drug overdoses is nothing compared to gulags, and even the ones who built the gulags were absolutely certain that they were doing the moral thing. Thus I am not predicting any change of heart by those who run the city. A few hundred overdose deaths and tens of thousands of property crimes are a small price to pay in order to feel that you are being compassionate. What I do know is that many people who have different values are leaving the city in droves, trying to find places that are managed more wisely. Thus my prediction is that San Francisco will develop a poor reputation as a mismanaged city that is run by people who think disastrous policies should be continued as long as they are based on good intentions. I am not predicting that SF turns into a Detroit, or becomes a poor city. I am not predicting that most of the tech jobs will leave. My only prediction is that the city will become an object lesson for other cities to learn from.
  - insert_coin 5y ago
    They are literally threatening to split Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google. Crime is up 1000% and people like you are dismissing it. It is a safe city if you never bother to walk into the city, and the problem is expanding. It won't be a safe city for much longer, or a rich city. There are no restaurants in the world that can change that.
- deadbolt 5y ago
  I already live in Detroit, it kicks ass.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
There’s a really weird political element in San Francisco which claims this reporting is all a conspiracy. While it’s true the violent crime coverage has been misleading, there has been an unprecedented normalisation of all manner of property crimes in a way that, to this New Yorker, is shocking in its banality. That dismissal of criticism as a conspiracy is thwarting civic discussion on this trend. The unfortunate effect of this is it’s setting back reasonable police reform movements in other major cities by a decade or more.
- FreeSpeech 5y ago
  It's intentional: https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Billionaire-Soros-funding-reform-minded-district-12902248.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Billionaire-Sor...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- tolbish 5y ago
  Why are you so sure it will set back police reform? The idea that "the police should be held accountable" and the idea that "the police are necessary and should be funded" are not mutually exclusive.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Why are you so sure it will set back police reform? The effect is palpable in New York. The current lead candidate is campaigning on a promise of increasing police powers. There was direct campaigning on not letting New York become San Francisco, and keeping the Chesas out of the DA seats.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
goodells 5y ago
We have the same DA-refuses-to-prosecute issue here in Madison, WI - except the issue is car theft by teens. The DA is an elected position. Our chief of police resigned last year because the police would arrest them and they'd be let out hours later on a signature bond. There are kids who have gotten arrested more than 10 times for the same thing - stealing cars and shoplifting - but either the DA is afraid of appearing racist or his office is so overworked it's impossible to be effective. Society is running on auto-pilot with no enforcement of everyday laws, and sooner or later things are going to break down in a big way.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  > refuses-to-prosecute Almost like selective enforcement of the law is a step towards tyranny and we’ve know that for hundreds of years.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    In the US, the police more than anyone decide who is a criminal and when, and it has always been that way.
    - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
      In what way is that also not selective enforcement?
    - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
      The SF DA refuses to prosecute crimes. Police were still enforcing laws until they gave up.
  - goodells 5y ago
    There's a difference between "everybody jay-walks so the police always have an excuse to pick you up" and violent crimes that the community as a whole notices go unpunished by repeat offenders.
    - 5y ago
tyingq 5y ago
Guessing that it being normal to wear a mask helps a bit as well. Less worry about being on camera. I would think SF could charge people with more than shoplifting if it's an organized event. California has "Section 490.4 - Organized retail theft" that covers this sort of thing.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > I would think SF could charge people with more than shoplifting if it's an organized event. California has Section 490.4 - Organized retail theft that cover this sort of thing. Could? Certainly. The problem is that Chesa Boudin won't.
  - tyingq 5y ago
    Sure. I was pointing out that Prop 47 by itself shouldn't be a barrier.
infamouscow 5y ago
I wonder how fast the approach shifts after the people in charge find themselves in a sticky situation with not a single LEO willing to respond.
- staticautomatic 5y ago
  I’ve lived here for almost 15 years now and I can’t remember the cops ever responding to the shit people are now blaming the DA for.
  - infamouscow 5y ago
    Completely agree. It's definitely not new, but I think we are starting to see the practical limits of the policy.
tzs 5y ago
Is it happening in other big cities in California? I only see stories about San Francisco.
pas 5y ago
Why does the DA refuse to prosecute? Prop 47 or not misdemeanors can easily earn a 6 month incarceration in case of a repeat offender. So these while obviously related it doesn't seem that Prop 47 is the big bad wolf here.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > Why does the DA refuse to prosecute? Because he is extremely pro-criminal. This is why there's a recall campaign against him. > it doesn't seem that Prop 47 is the big bad wolf here. I agree that Chesa is a much bigger problem, but Prop 47 is still a problem too.
  - pas 5y ago
    What's the problem with Prop 47?
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      Most of these criminals are repeat offenders. If they stayed in jail longer, they wouldn't be able to reoffend as often.

decremental 5y ago

NYC isn't big on prosecuting crime and Chicago is basically the most dangerous place on Earth to live. There is something in common with all of these places.

FreeSpeech 5y ago

It's unbelievable the amount of depravity a single DA can inflict. An unprecedented number of companies and workers are fleeing the city. San Francisco is set to become the next Detroit. What's your exit plan?

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> San Francisco is set to become the next Detroit This is hyperbole. The Bay Area remains an economic dynamo. San Francisco’s culinary and cultural credentials remain largely untouched. It’s a safe city to be rich around, and that will continue to be the case for the near future. The distinction important. Threatening the city’s economic elite with ruin is a red herring. Contrast that with Detroit, where the city’s economic elite were directly threatened. That threat forced change, by changing opinions and replacing decision makers. That pressure has been inhibited in San Francisco by its continuing ability to generate wealth independent of its problems.
- epicureanideal 5y ago
  I don't know about those culinary credentials... other large cities have similar amounts of variety and quality, and a lot better parking and less homeless addicts near the restaurants. Can you give me some examples of cultural credentials?
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Can you give me some examples of cultural credentials? San Francisco has a large number of Michelin-rated restaurants. Their clientele are largely insulated from these issues. It also has a large number of independent theatres and performance and exhibition spaces. One of the city’s problems is its elites can live quite well independent of reality on the ground. That’s essential to the political problem, and why claims that San Francisco is going the way of Detroit can be distracting or even harmfully mollifying. This is not a system that will self stabilise.
    - epicureanideal 5y ago
      I live nearby and I'm pretty sure I've never eaten at one, despite being able to afford to. I don't think most people select the place they live based on the number of literally Michelin-rated restaurants. I imagine it's more like, do they have reasonable quality international food with say a dozen national varieties, and if they do, that's probably a checkmark on the food option. Personally, I'd rather have low crime, clean streets, cheap housing, and a good environment for family formation. Anything else can be found on the weekend, even if that means a car ride or a plane trip.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - sologoub 5y ago
      The “elite” part of SF are getting hit all the same - you can’t leave a car parked in pacific heights or cow hollow without risking a break-in. Friends resort to leaving cars unlocked, windows down, just to try and avoid more broken windows or other damage. You can’t really insulate yourself from the situation on the streets you have to walk/drive. Comparatively, NYC has better food and culture scenes. LA has excellent food scene as well with arguably better regional varieties and beach is way better. What SF really has are proximity to great jobs and reputation/network of SV. So long as these hold, people will continue to tolerate the many issues. This is where comparison with Detroit is not that outlandish - Detroit was once the place to be for good paying automotive jobs. In those days, real estate was booming and prices were high for their day. If you take away to tech booms, there is still a lot to like - nature, weather, aforementioned food/culture stuff. Unfortunately, that’s offset by issues discussed here, as well as huge amounts of pollution and superfunds, so without the great jobs/industry, it might get a lot less appealing quickly.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  The problem is that if you are rich, there is very little that SF has that you can't find in any large city or that you can't visit/travel to. But sidewalks filled with feces, public spaces soaked in urine and covered with disposed needles are truly unique. People lying around naked in the streets or walking around without pants or underwear, screaming at the air, dragging blankets around them right in the middle of Columbus avenue by the transamerica building -- that's something that truly distinguishes san francisco and is now what the city is known for. I was in Pabu and saw a man take off his pants and defecate in the flower pots in the public space on california and market. While some wealthy people may not care, I would assume many more want a different dining experience.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    I agree. I don’t live in San Francisco. But assuming some self correction through economic ruin is, in my view, optimistic. The current situation can sustain itself for longer than those comparing San Francisco to Detroit might think.
    - FreeSpeech 5y ago
      Tech is already in the cloud. SF workers are already remote. The exit is already under way. The current situation is the definition of unsustainable.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      People expecting some kind of judgement or cost to be levied on the city for its foolish ethics and reckless policies are forgetting that the quality of life issues are the cost. There is no further punishment needed. You want to pretend every homeless person is a victim worthy of massive subsidies and a blind eye by the police? Fine, you will have a city overrun with homeless and streets filled with feces. Trying to predict how many people are willing to put up with these costs in order to build their ideal utopia is a risky enteprise. As Neitszche said, man can bear any how as long as he knows the why. The majority of SF voters are convinced that they are being moral by tolerating this behavior and so they are prepared to bear the burden of living with what they tolerate. In the big picture, this is nothing compared to the human costs of other utopian projects we've tried in the 20th century, so I don't think the voters of SF have reached anything close to peak disgust. Feces and an epidemic of drug overdoses is nothing compared to gulags, and even the ones who built the gulags were absolutely certain that they were doing the moral thing. Thus I am not predicting any change of heart by those who run the city. A few hundred overdose deaths and tens of thousands of property crimes are a small price to pay in order to feel that you are being compassionate. What I do know is that many people who have different values are leaving the city in droves, trying to find places that are managed more wisely. Thus my prediction is that San Francisco will develop a poor reputation as a mismanaged city that is run by people who think disastrous policies should be continued as long as they are based on good intentions. I am not predicting that SF turns into a Detroit, or becomes a poor city. I am not predicting that most of the tech jobs will leave. My only prediction is that the city will become an object lesson for other cities to learn from.
- insert_coin 5y ago
  They are literally threatening to split Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google. Crime is up 1000% and people like you are dismissing it. It is a safe city if you never bother to walk into the city, and the problem is expanding. It won't be a safe city for much longer, or a rich city. There are no restaurants in the world that can change that.
deadbolt 5y ago
I already live in Detroit, it kicks ass.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

There’s a really weird political element in San Francisco which claims this reporting is all a conspiracy. While it’s true the violent crime coverage has been misleading, there has been an unprecedented normalisation of all manner of property crimes in a way that, to this New Yorker, is shocking in its banality. That dismissal of criticism as a conspiracy is thwarting civic discussion on this trend. The unfortunate effect of this is it’s setting back reasonable police reform movements in other major cities by a decade or more.

FreeSpeech 5y ago
It's intentional: https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Billionaire-Soros-funding-reform-minded-district-12902248.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Billionaire-Sor...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
tolbish 5y ago
Why are you so sure it will set back police reform? The idea that "the police should be held accountable" and the idea that "the police are necessary and should be funded" are not mutually exclusive.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Why are you so sure it will set back police reform? The effect is palpable in New York. The current lead candidate is campaigning on a promise of increasing police powers. There was direct campaigning on not letting New York become San Francisco, and keeping the Chesas out of the DA seats.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago

goodells 5y ago

We have the same DA-refuses-to-prosecute issue here in Madison, WI - except the issue is car theft by teens. The DA is an elected position. Our chief of police resigned last year because the police would arrest them and they'd be let out hours later on a signature bond. There are kids who have gotten arrested more than 10 times for the same thing - stealing cars and shoplifting - but either the DA is afraid of appearing racist or his office is so overworked it's impossible to be effective. Society is running on auto-pilot with no enforcement of everyday laws, and sooner or later things are going to break down in a big way.

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
> refuses-to-prosecute Almost like selective enforcement of the law is a step towards tyranny and we’ve know that for hundreds of years.
- standardUser 5y ago
  In the US, the police more than anyone decide who is a criminal and when, and it has always been that way.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    In what way is that also not selective enforcement?
  - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
    The SF DA refuses to prosecute crimes. Police were still enforcing laws until they gave up.
- goodells 5y ago
  There's a difference between "everybody jay-walks so the police always have an excuse to pick you up" and violent crimes that the community as a whole notices go unpunished by repeat offenders.
  - 5y ago

tyingq 5y ago

Guessing that it being normal to wear a mask helps a bit as well. Less worry about being on camera. I would think SF could charge people with more than shoplifting if it's an organized event. California has "Section 490.4 - Organized retail theft" that covers this sort of thing.

josephcsible 5y ago
> I would think SF could charge people with more than shoplifting if it's an organized event. California has Section 490.4 - Organized retail theft that cover this sort of thing. Could? Certainly. The problem is that Chesa Boudin won't.
- tyingq 5y ago
  Sure. I was pointing out that Prop 47 by itself shouldn't be a barrier.

infamouscow 5y ago

I wonder how fast the approach shifts after the people in charge find themselves in a sticky situation with not a single LEO willing to respond.

staticautomatic 5y ago
I’ve lived here for almost 15 years now and I can’t remember the cops ever responding to the shit people are now blaming the DA for.
- infamouscow 5y ago
  Completely agree. It's definitely not new, but I think we are starting to see the practical limits of the policy.

tzs 5y ago

Is it happening in other big cities in California? I only see stories about San Francisco.

pas 5y ago

Why does the DA refuse to prosecute? Prop 47 or not misdemeanors can easily earn a 6 month incarceration in case of a repeat offender. So these while obviously related it doesn't seem that Prop 47 is the big bad wolf here.

josephcsible 5y ago
> Why does the DA refuse to prosecute? Because he is extremely pro-criminal. This is why there's a recall campaign against him. > it doesn't seem that Prop 47 is the big bad wolf here. I agree that Chesa is a much bigger problem, but Prop 47 is still a problem too.
- pas 5y ago
  What's the problem with Prop 47?
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Most of these criminals are repeat offenders. If they stayed in jail longer, they wouldn't be able to reoffend as often.