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San Francisco Organized Shoplifting Surge Prompts Target to Cut Operating Hours
- b9a2cab5 5y agoProp 47 and SF's "criminals are oppressed by society" approach to crime are to blame here. You can't get the grunts to roll on the bosses if all you can charge them with is a misdemeanor, and you can't get police to even arrest thieves if the DA refuses to prosecute. This doesn't happen in other big cities like NYC, Boston, Chicago, etc.
- decremental 5y agoNYC isn't big on prosecuting crime and Chicago is basically the most dangerous place on Earth to live. There is something in common with all of these places.
- FreeSpeech 5y agoIt's unbelievable the amount of depravity a single DA can inflict. An unprecedented number of companies and workers are fleeing the city. San Francisco is set to become the next Detroit. What's your exit plan?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago> San Francisco is set to become the next Detroit This is hyperbole. The Bay Area remains an economic dynamo. San Francisco’s culinary and cultural credentials remain largely untouched. It’s a safe city to be rich around, and that will continue to be the case for the near future. The distinction important. Threatening the city’s economic elite with ruin is a red herring. Contrast that with Detroit, where the city’s economic elite were directly threatened. That threat forced change, by changing opinions and replacing decision makers. That pressure has been inhibited in San Francisco by its continuing ability to generate wealth independent of its problems.
- epicureanideal 5y agoI don't know about those culinary credentials... other large cities have similar amounts of variety and quality, and a lot better parking and less homeless addicts near the restaurants. Can you give me some examples of cultural credentials?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago> Can you give me some examples of cultural credentials? San Francisco has a large number of Michelin-rated restaurants. Their clientele are largely insulated from these issues. It also has a large number of independent theatres and performance and exhibition spaces. One of the city’s problems is its elites can live quite well independent of reality on the ground. That’s essential to the political problem, and why claims that San Francisco is going the way of Detroit can be distracting or even harmfully mollifying. This is not a system that will self stabilise.
- epicureanideal 5y agoI live nearby and I'm pretty sure I've never eaten at one, despite being able to afford to. I don't think most people select the place they live based on the number of literally Michelin-rated restaurants. I imagine it's more like, do they have reasonable quality international food with say a dozen national varieties, and if they do, that's probably a checkmark on the food option. Personally, I'd rather have low crime, clean streets, cheap housing, and a good environment for family formation. Anything else can be found on the weekend, even if that means a car ride or a plane trip.
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- sologoub 5y agoThe “elite” part of SF are getting hit all the same - you can’t leave a car parked in pacific heights or cow hollow without risking a break-in. Friends resort to leaving cars unlocked, windows down, just to try and avoid more broken windows or other damage. You can’t really insulate yourself from the situation on the streets you have to walk/drive. Comparatively, NYC has better food and culture scenes. LA has excellent food scene as well with arguably better regional varieties and beach is way better. What SF really has are proximity to great jobs and reputation/network of SV. So long as these hold, people will continue to tolerate the many issues. This is where comparison with Detroit is not that outlandish - Detroit was once the place to be for good paying automotive jobs. In those days, real estate was booming and prices were high for their day. If you take away to tech booms, there is still a lot to like - nature, weather, aforementioned food/culture stuff. Unfortunately, that’s offset by issues discussed here, as well as huge amounts of pollution and superfunds, so without the great jobs/industry, it might get a lot less appealing quickly.
- deadbolt 5y agoI already live in Detroit, it kicks ass.
- JumpCrisscross 5y agoThere’s a really weird political element in San Francisco which claims this reporting is all a conspiracy. While it’s true the violent crime coverage has been misleading, there has been an unprecedented normalisation of all manner of property crimes in a way that, to this New Yorker, is shocking in its banality. That dismissal of criticism as a conspiracy is thwarting civic discussion on this trend. The unfortunate effect of this is it’s setting back reasonable police reform movements in other major cities by a decade or more.
- FreeSpeech 5y agoIt's intentional: https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Billionaire-Soros-funding-reform-minded-district-12902248.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Billionaire-Sor...
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- tolbish 5y agoWhy are you so sure it will set back police reform? The idea that "the police should be held accountable" and the idea that "the police are necessary and should be funded" are not mutually exclusive.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago> Why are you so sure it will set back police reform? The effect is palpable in New York. The current lead candidate is campaigning on a promise of increasing police powers. There was direct campaigning on not letting New York become San Francisco, and keeping the Chesas out of the DA seats.
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- lotsofpulp 5y ago
- goodells 5y agoWe have the same DA-refuses-to-prosecute issue here in Madison, WI - except the issue is car theft by teens. The DA is an elected position. Our chief of police resigned last year because the police would arrest them and they'd be let out hours later on a signature bond. There are kids who have gotten arrested more than 10 times for the same thing - stealing cars and shoplifting - but either the DA is afraid of appearing racist or his office is so overworked it's impossible to be effective. Society is running on auto-pilot with no enforcement of everyday laws, and sooner or later things are going to break down in a big way.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago> refuses-to-prosecute Almost like selective enforcement of the law is a step towards tyranny and we’ve know that for hundreds of years.
- standardUser 5y agoIn the US, the police more than anyone decide who is a criminal and when, and it has always been that way.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y agoIn what way is that also not selective enforcement?
- readflaggedcomm 5y agoThe SF DA refuses to prosecute crimes. Police were still enforcing laws until they gave up.
- goodells 5y agoThere's a difference between "everybody jay-walks so the police always have an excuse to pick you up" and violent crimes that the community as a whole notices go unpunished by repeat offenders.
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- tyingq 5y agoGuessing that it being normal to wear a mask helps a bit as well. Less worry about being on camera. I would think SF could charge people with more than shoplifting if it's an organized event. California has "Section 490.4 - Organized retail theft" that covers this sort of thing.
- josephcsible 5y ago> I would think SF could charge people with more than shoplifting if it's an organized event. California has Section 490.4 - Organized retail theft that cover this sort of thing. Could? Certainly. The problem is that Chesa Boudin won't.
- tyingq 5y agoSure. I was pointing out that Prop 47 by itself shouldn't be a barrier.
- infamouscow 5y agoI wonder how fast the approach shifts after the people in charge find themselves in a sticky situation with not a single LEO willing to respond.
- staticautomatic 5y agoI’ve lived here for almost 15 years now and I can’t remember the cops ever responding to the shit people are now blaming the DA for.
- infamouscow 5y agoCompletely agree. It's definitely not new, but I think we are starting to see the practical limits of the policy.
- tzs 5y agoIs it happening in other big cities in California? I only see stories about San Francisco.
- pas 5y agoWhy does the DA refuse to prosecute? Prop 47 or not misdemeanors can easily earn a 6 month incarceration in case of a repeat offender. So these while obviously related it doesn't seem that Prop 47 is the big bad wolf here.
- josephcsible 5y ago> Why does the DA refuse to prosecute? Because he is extremely pro-criminal. This is why there's a recall campaign against him. > it doesn't seem that Prop 47 is the big bad wolf here. I agree that Chesa is a much bigger problem, but Prop 47 is still a problem too.
- pas 5y agoWhat's the problem with Prop 47?
- josephcsible 5y agoMost of these criminals are repeat offenders. If they stayed in jail longer, they wouldn't be able to reoffend as often.
- MattGaiser 5y agoIs San Francisco very pro-Amazon or something?
- rahimnathwani 5y agoMany Amazon packages are stolen from SF doorsteps each day.
- citrin_ru 5y agoIn many countries delivery to doorsteps is not a thing (due to risk of theft). You either have to be home or need to pick it up from a post office or from a locker. I wonder why Amazon doesn't install lockers where one can pick up a parcel in cities like SF?
- bradlys 5y agoYou can do this at Whole Foods and some other locations.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y agoMy gut feeling is that this post is going to be flagged very quickly. It's one of the issues that is dividing America right now and there is no chance a consensus is going to be reached during a discussion on HN. Even though this particular event is new, the phenomenon itself is not, and so far nobody has found a good solution.
- clarkmoody 5y agoYou are correct. There is not a political solution to this problem.
- readflaggedcomm 5y agoIs enforcing laws not a political solution? Edit: No responses, just moderation. It is a political solution, like I thought.
- tpmx 5y agoI agree that it's probably going to get flagged, but unjust flaggings can be undone by the site's moderators. I have found them to be surprisingly quick to respond via email, even during weekends. The email address can be found at the bottom of this page.
- jeroenhd 5y agoI'm not sure I understand. How is the rampant crime wave in SF a matter that divides people? I don't think there's a significant amount of Americans who believe that shoplifting is acceptable, is there?
- b9a2cab5 5y agoYou'd be surprised if you've ever talked to any left-wing (and I mean actually left-wing, not what Fox News calls left-wing) people. To shoplift from big stores is to "fight the corporate power". This demographic is particularly pronounced in the Bay Area. My personal experience has been that most of them also came from fairly wealthy families and have never experienced actual crime.
- clarkmoody 5y agoThe basic premise of the state is that it exists to protect life & property. The past 18 months have shown that the state will do neither if it doesn't feel like it. But you had better keep paying those taxes, because reasons.
- MattGaiser 5y agoHow much of it is that your neighbours don't feel like it?
- ScaleneTriangle 5y ago> The basic premise of the state is that it exists to protect life & property. Citation Needed
- draw_down 5y agoNope
- GaryTang 5y agoWhich is ironic because high tax rates are likely the true culprit for high crime rates. https://www.newsoptimist.ca/opinion/columnists/how-high-taxes-create-crime-and-hurt-society-1.23825007 https://www.newsoptimist.ca/opinion/columnists/how-high-taxe...
- PakistaniDenzel 5y agoThe video at the top of the page: "Police Seek Victim After Woman's Hair Set Alight on San Francisco Bus" San Francisco sounds like a lovely place...
- SavantIdiot 5y agoTell me what city you're from and I find a scary headline. Be honest.
- PakistaniDenzel 5y agoSingapore
- SavantIdiot 5y agoYou mean the place where you get thrown in prison then caned for tagging? Wow, I'd never want to visit that police state. Sounds like a lovely place. https://www.foxnews.com/world/singapore-sentences-swiss-man-to-caning-for-spraying-graffiti-on-subway-car https://www.foxnews.com/world/singapore-sentences-swiss-man-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay EDIT: time spent in prison was off by 7 months
- josephcsible 5y agoTo be clear, "tagging" is vandalism. Also, your source says 5 months, not the 1 year that you claimed.
- adjkant 5y ago> To be clear, "tagging" is vandalism. In NYC we call that art. I just went to a museum exhibit in Boston about graffiti art on public transit in the 80's. Point being, something so benign being that strongly and violently punished does indeed sound crazy to me.
- rich_sasha 5y agoNon-American resident: what’s going on in SF? Is the crime rate really so high, and racing up? And if so, why?
- throwawaysea 5y agoYes it is that high. A lot of it is also unreported just because it is everywhere, and people have grown numb to it - especially because the city is not doing anything about it. Public defecation, open drug abuse, littering, car break-ins, burglaries of private homes, looting of stores, and so on are rampant. I would say crime that results in physical bodily harm is not as pronounced but other crimes are rampant. In my opinion it is the result of public policies that view criminals as victims and aims to be soft on them, viewing that as a path to reduced recidivism. However in practice it is simply inducing a significant increase in crime because the deterrents to crime (arrests, charges, fines, jail time) are removed. I wrote more about this in a different discussion if you're interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27726777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27726777
- sdenton4 5y agoNo it's not. https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crime-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim... Pretty random fluctuations across crime categories year over year (5% up for robbery, vehicle theft, 11% down for larceny/theft, which is what this articles about...). For reference, it looks like a few years ago SF was 9th in the us for robbery, at 34 per 10k residents. The current sf stats come to about 40 per 10k residents. https://www.safety.com/home-security/cities-with-high-rates-of-robberies/ https://www.safety.com/home-security/cities-with-high-rates-...
- b9a2cab5 5y agoThat's because police don't even bother to report these crimes anymore. See: the article posted recently with the video of shoplifters straight up clearing out an entire Walgreens and no police in sight.
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- throwawaysea 5y agoRelated recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27724699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27724699
- naga_n 5y agoSF used to ge a great city.
- Animats 5y agoThere is a recall campaign underway for the San Francisco district attorney.[1] Needs 51,325 valid signatures by August 11th, 2021. [1] https://www.recallchesaboudin.org/ https://www.recallchesaboudin.org/
- sbuttgereit 5y agoI'll be signing.
- naveen99 5y agoThis is counter intuitive. I expected the coming (here?) surveillance state would lower crime in cheaper real estate neighborhoods. Here the opposite is happening, the priciest real estate in the world is becoming more crimeful. I suspect it’s all just theater.
- sbuttgereit 5y agoAlso, the Target across the street from us, one of the smaller Target Express concept stores on trial in San Francisco, just shut down permanently last week. The store manager cited crime and the cost of hiring off duty police as security (in addition to normal security personnel) as making the store too expensive to operate. Walgreens closing down smaller stores as well citing the same reason. Driving though our neighborhood and an adjacent neighborhood, during the past couple of weeks and I've seen no fewer than four businesses with glass doors or display windows smashed in. I read about how this is a conspiracy in reporting, but the businesses are leaving and many storefronts in our neighborhood are empty. I also read how some citizens are trying to shame companies like Walgreens from leaving their neighborhoods... But the blame seems terribly misplaced. A more reflective, thoughtful population might make the connection between the policies they support in being against something and the negative outcomes that arise by not actually being for something that addresses these issues. San Francisco, collectively, is just not that smart
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- tryingtogetback 5y agoThis is a very interesting historical phenomenon. Basing my views strictly on objectivism, isn't that a side effect of what residents are being actively manipulated to vote (and blindly/aggressively stand) for? There is definitely a negative financial impact of being discriminatory and "prosecutory" towards individuals with a high potential (high mental capacity) aka resources we need to use which haven't been "discovered" or "utilized" yet and it makes total sense to pull those out of the system ASAP (in this case prevent them from going through the system in the first place) which seems like a very profitable direction for the industries involved (see the rise of coding bootcamps) but has an extreme and unintended second order effect no-one planned for: uncontrolled crime. Maybe 1 out of 100.000 could make it to be a Craig Federighi of sorts, but is it really worth it if other 99.999 are looting, shoplifting, and defecating on your porch?
- dang 5y agoTarget finally explains why nearly all its SF stores have reduced hours - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27718204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27718204 - July 2021 (71 comments)