3 ms·

Think of transportation as trading off against housing. If housing were cheaper and more abundant, transportation would be truly discretionary. As it is, cheape

Think of transportation as trading off against housing. If housing were cheaper and more abundant, transportation would be truly discretionary. As it is, cheaper house in the US usually means car+long commute, with associated depreciation and fuel costs.

zemvpferreira 5y ago
Still, $9K/year is clearly not being spent on gas driving two fully-paid 10 year old japaneses econo-boxes. We can't hide leasing new v8 BMWs every 3 years under "essential transportation costs".
- kiba 5y ago
  It is nonetheless a society wide problem, regardless of individual autonomy.
- _delirium 5y ago
  You can do a little better than $9k/yr, but not by that much. You can't totally ignore capital cost, since cars have a finite lifespan. Even if you buy cheap cars, the amortized cost is hard to get under maybe $500-750/yr. So that's $1-1.5k/yr in amortized capital costs for two. The average cost of car insurance for a household is around $2k/yr, though that varies significantly by location, age, and driving history. Probably another $500-1k/yr for regular maintenance for two cars, depending on how easy on the tires/etc. your location is. You can probably trade more maintenance costs for lower amortized capital costs if you buy cheaper used cars, but you'd have to DIY maintenance to come ahead significantly. Then let's assume these are 40 mpg, and there's a couple who each work 250 days a year and both have the average U.S. commute of 32 miles roundtrip. That's $1200 in gas at TX prices, or $1600 at CA prices. So the overall estimate is maybe $5-6k/yr, even being pretty frugal. And I'm also assuming you don't have to pay to park at home or work, or pay tolls on the commute.
  - zemvpferreira 5y ago
    Thank you for the excellent breakdown. Is insurance really that expensive in the US? Mine is something like $200/year.
    - alostpuppy 5y ago
      If that’s health insurance it about 7x too low. Must be a cost sharing arrangement with the employer.
    - _delirium 5y ago
      The numbers I can find are that the U.S. average is $125/mo for a single driver, and something like 1.5x that for a household. Varies hugely though based on age, driving record, vehicle value, and location.
kiba 5y ago
Transportation and housing are ultimately a land use problem. We decided to build roads, and wide roads, as well tons of suburbia.
- Sharlin 5y ago
  Which brings us back to the article’s point of manufactured demand.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    I won't mince my words. I saw a forum post where people complained about overpriced homes in suburbia. Other people defended the prices because that is the price you have to pay to get away from black crime.
_delirium 5y ago
It doesn't even require a particularly long commute to get to that cost. Some back of the envelope calculations: The IRS has to conduct an annual study of the average cost of operating a vehicle, to set the mileage reimbursement rate for cars driven for business purposes. They currently estimate it at $0.56/mile (including depreciation, insurance, registration, gas, maintenance, etc.). So $9k/yr is 16,000 miles/year. The average U.S. household has 1.9 cars, so that's 8500 miles per car. If you commute 250 days a year, that's only a 17-mile commute each way, which is not coincidentally just about the U.S. average.

zemvpferreira 5y ago

Still, $9K/year is clearly not being spent on gas driving two fully-paid 10 year old japaneses econo-boxes. We can't hide leasing new v8 BMWs every 3 years under "essential transportation costs".

kiba 5y ago
It is nonetheless a society wide problem, regardless of individual autonomy.
_delirium 5y ago
You can do a little better than $9k/yr, but not by that much. You can't totally ignore capital cost, since cars have a finite lifespan. Even if you buy cheap cars, the amortized cost is hard to get under maybe $500-750/yr. So that's $1-1.5k/yr in amortized capital costs for two. The average cost of car insurance for a household is around $2k/yr, though that varies significantly by location, age, and driving history. Probably another $500-1k/yr for regular maintenance for two cars, depending on how easy on the tires/etc. your location is. You can probably trade more maintenance costs for lower amortized capital costs if you buy cheaper used cars, but you'd have to DIY maintenance to come ahead significantly. Then let's assume these are 40 mpg, and there's a couple who each work 250 days a year and both have the average U.S. commute of 32 miles roundtrip. That's $1200 in gas at TX prices, or $1600 at CA prices. So the overall estimate is maybe $5-6k/yr, even being pretty frugal. And I'm also assuming you don't have to pay to park at home or work, or pay tolls on the commute.
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  Thank you for the excellent breakdown. Is insurance really that expensive in the US? Mine is something like $200/year.
  - alostpuppy 5y ago
    If that’s health insurance it about 7x too low. Must be a cost sharing arrangement with the employer.
  - _delirium 5y ago
    The numbers I can find are that the U.S. average is $125/mo for a single driver, and something like 1.5x that for a household. Varies hugely though based on age, driving record, vehicle value, and location.

kiba 5y ago

Transportation and housing are ultimately a land use problem. We decided to build roads, and wide roads, as well tons of suburbia.

Sharlin 5y ago
Which brings us back to the article’s point of manufactured demand.
- imtringued 5y ago
  I won't mince my words. I saw a forum post where people complained about overpriced homes in suburbia. Other people defended the prices because that is the price you have to pay to get away from black crime.

_delirium 5y ago

It doesn't even require a particularly long commute to get to that cost. Some back of the envelope calculations: The IRS has to conduct an annual study of the average cost of operating a vehicle, to set the mileage reimbursement rate for cars driven for business purposes. They currently estimate it at $0.56/mile (including depreciation, insurance, registration, gas, maintenance, etc.). So $9k/yr is 16,000 miles/year. The average U.S. household has 1.9 cars, so that's 8500 miles per car. If you commute 250 days a year, that's only a 17-mile commute each way, which is not coincidentally just about the U.S. average.