7 ms·

Not to take away from your excellent point but is spending $9k/year on transportation really mandatory? $7k on utilities? I live in a country where gasoline an

Not to take away from your excellent point but is spending $9k/year on transportation really mandatory? $7k on utilities? I live in a country where gasoline and cars are 2x as expensive as the US. My fully-loaded transportation costs are around $2k/year . That's driving every day. My utilities cost around $1000/year. What lifestyle is this that people have been suckered into?

AbrahamParangi 5y ago
Think of transportation as trading off against housing. If housing were cheaper and more abundant, transportation would be truly discretionary. As it is, cheaper house in the US usually means car+long commute, with associated depreciation and fuel costs.
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  Still, $9K/year is clearly not being spent on gas driving two fully-paid 10 year old japaneses econo-boxes. We can't hide leasing new v8 BMWs every 3 years under "essential transportation costs".
  - kiba 5y ago
    It is nonetheless a society wide problem, regardless of individual autonomy.
  - _delirium 5y ago
    You can do a little better than $9k/yr, but not by that much. You can't totally ignore capital cost, since cars have a finite lifespan. Even if you buy cheap cars, the amortized cost is hard to get under maybe $500-750/yr. So that's $1-1.5k/yr in amortized capital costs for two. The average cost of car insurance for a household is around $2k/yr, though that varies significantly by location, age, and driving history. Probably another $500-1k/yr for regular maintenance for two cars, depending on how easy on the tires/etc. your location is. You can probably trade more maintenance costs for lower amortized capital costs if you buy cheaper used cars, but you'd have to DIY maintenance to come ahead significantly. Then let's assume these are 40 mpg, and there's a couple who each work 250 days a year and both have the average U.S. commute of 32 miles roundtrip. That's $1200 in gas at TX prices, or $1600 at CA prices. So the overall estimate is maybe $5-6k/yr, even being pretty frugal. And I'm also assuming you don't have to pay to park at home or work, or pay tolls on the commute.
    - zemvpferreira 5y ago
      Thank you for the excellent breakdown. Is insurance really that expensive in the US? Mine is something like $200/year.
      - alostpuppy 5y ago
        If that’s health insurance it about 7x too low. Must be a cost sharing arrangement with the employer.
      - _delirium 5y ago
        The numbers I can find are that the U.S. average is $125/mo for a single driver, and something like 1.5x that for a household. Varies hugely though based on age, driving record, vehicle value, and location.
- kiba 5y ago
  Transportation and housing are ultimately a land use problem. We decided to build roads, and wide roads, as well tons of suburbia.
  - Sharlin 5y ago
    Which brings us back to the article’s point of manufactured demand.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      I won't mince my words. I saw a forum post where people complained about overpriced homes in suburbia. Other people defended the prices because that is the price you have to pay to get away from black crime.
- _delirium 5y ago
  It doesn't even require a particularly long commute to get to that cost. Some back of the envelope calculations: The IRS has to conduct an annual study of the average cost of operating a vehicle, to set the mileage reimbursement rate for cars driven for business purposes. They currently estimate it at $0.56/mile (including depreciation, insurance, registration, gas, maintenance, etc.). So $9k/yr is 16,000 miles/year. The average U.S. household has 1.9 cars, so that's 8500 miles per car. If you commute 250 days a year, that's only a 17-mile commute each way, which is not coincidentally just about the U.S. average.
anonuser123456 5y ago
I have a friend that spends 500$ / month on water alone. This person thinks they might have a pool leak, but hasn't looked into in the past 2 years. My parents use 900kwh of electricity / month and complain that PG&E are ripping them off when their bill is 400$ / month. Have they bothered to do anything to bring down their consumption? Nope. I have a T2 diabetic friend that complains about the cost of insulin, yet refuses to exercise and loose weight. People have not been suckered into anything. Most people lack the agency to change their circumstances.
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  I don't mean to put those people down - it is what it is. I'm privileged to be able to live frugally without sacrifice. I do object however at calling your parents' utility costs essential or mandatory. I hope some good counterexamples can help them/others see it's not impossible to spend less if they invest their energy in making changes.
  - kiba 5y ago
    It is a good idea to lower your utility cost, but the utility can still charge outrageous prices.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- kiba 5y ago
  I have a T2 diabetic friend that complains about the cost of insulin, yet refuses to exercise and loose weight. Losing weight and keeping the weight is hard. It isn't a coincidence that we have an obesity epidemic for a reason. Suppose your friend did try to lose weight? More likely than not your friend will gain weight back. Yes, there's no excuse to try. but there's no expectation of success. People have not been suckered into anything. Most people lack the agency to change their circumstances. This is called learned helplessness and it is a big problem, but there are also contributing problems other than learned helplessness, such as structural problems surrounding housing options. In any case, blaming people for their lack of moral fortitude isn't really a solution at all. It means we stopped asking questions and looking for solutions.
fearface 5y ago
And your 2k include the cost of the car, related insurance and services, road tax?
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  Not the cost of the car, I consider it well amortized (16 year old car). I do include everything else.
newsclues 5y ago
American cities (suburbs) are designed for cars, and for cars to be profitable for auto makers and oil companies.
slumdev 5y ago
To both of your questions, no. > Not to take away from your excellent point but is spending $9k/year on transportation really mandatory? Before "Cash for Clunkers", an Obama-era program that removed a lot of older vehicles from the road, it was normal to be able to purchase a functional and clean used vehicle for $2-3k. It is clear that the program was a great success at removing these vehicles. But with the average American car today being a mid-size SUV, it's not clear that it achieved its objective of reducing our CO2 emissions. Either way, the cost of a used vehicle today is much higher. > $7k on utilities? This is $700 per month. Someone in a medium-large house in a state with high electricity costs might spend this during the summer months. But the median American utility bill is probably in the $200-300 range, or $3600/year at the high end. The actual category on the linked web page includes "and other household operational costs". Figuring 1% of home value per year spent on maintenance, for a $300,000 home, that's another $3000. And that, combined with the utilities, gets us pretty close to the $7k number.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

AbrahamParangi 5y ago

Think of transportation as trading off against housing. If housing were cheaper and more abundant, transportation would be truly discretionary. As it is, cheaper house in the US usually means car+long commute, with associated depreciation and fuel costs.

zemvpferreira 5y ago
Still, $9K/year is clearly not being spent on gas driving two fully-paid 10 year old japaneses econo-boxes. We can't hide leasing new v8 BMWs every 3 years under "essential transportation costs".
- kiba 5y ago
  It is nonetheless a society wide problem, regardless of individual autonomy.
- _delirium 5y ago
  You can do a little better than $9k/yr, but not by that much. You can't totally ignore capital cost, since cars have a finite lifespan. Even if you buy cheap cars, the amortized cost is hard to get under maybe $500-750/yr. So that's $1-1.5k/yr in amortized capital costs for two. The average cost of car insurance for a household is around $2k/yr, though that varies significantly by location, age, and driving history. Probably another $500-1k/yr for regular maintenance for two cars, depending on how easy on the tires/etc. your location is. You can probably trade more maintenance costs for lower amortized capital costs if you buy cheaper used cars, but you'd have to DIY maintenance to come ahead significantly. Then let's assume these are 40 mpg, and there's a couple who each work 250 days a year and both have the average U.S. commute of 32 miles roundtrip. That's $1200 in gas at TX prices, or $1600 at CA prices. So the overall estimate is maybe $5-6k/yr, even being pretty frugal. And I'm also assuming you don't have to pay to park at home or work, or pay tolls on the commute.
  - zemvpferreira 5y ago
    Thank you for the excellent breakdown. Is insurance really that expensive in the US? Mine is something like $200/year.
    - alostpuppy 5y ago
      If that’s health insurance it about 7x too low. Must be a cost sharing arrangement with the employer.
    - _delirium 5y ago
      The numbers I can find are that the U.S. average is $125/mo for a single driver, and something like 1.5x that for a household. Varies hugely though based on age, driving record, vehicle value, and location.
kiba 5y ago
Transportation and housing are ultimately a land use problem. We decided to build roads, and wide roads, as well tons of suburbia.
- Sharlin 5y ago
  Which brings us back to the article’s point of manufactured demand.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    I won't mince my words. I saw a forum post where people complained about overpriced homes in suburbia. Other people defended the prices because that is the price you have to pay to get away from black crime.
_delirium 5y ago
It doesn't even require a particularly long commute to get to that cost. Some back of the envelope calculations: The IRS has to conduct an annual study of the average cost of operating a vehicle, to set the mileage reimbursement rate for cars driven for business purposes. They currently estimate it at $0.56/mile (including depreciation, insurance, registration, gas, maintenance, etc.). So $9k/yr is 16,000 miles/year. The average U.S. household has 1.9 cars, so that's 8500 miles per car. If you commute 250 days a year, that's only a 17-mile commute each way, which is not coincidentally just about the U.S. average.

anonuser123456 5y ago

I have a friend that spends 500$ / month on water alone. This person thinks they might have a pool leak, but hasn't looked into in the past 2 years. My parents use 900kwh of electricity / month and complain that PG&E are ripping them off when their bill is 400$ / month. Have they bothered to do anything to bring down their consumption? Nope. I have a T2 diabetic friend that complains about the cost of insulin, yet refuses to exercise and loose weight. People have not been suckered into anything. Most people lack the agency to change their circumstances.

zemvpferreira 5y ago
I don't mean to put those people down - it is what it is. I'm privileged to be able to live frugally without sacrifice. I do object however at calling your parents' utility costs essential or mandatory. I hope some good counterexamples can help them/others see it's not impossible to spend less if they invest their energy in making changes.
- kiba 5y ago
  It is a good idea to lower your utility cost, but the utility can still charge outrageous prices.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
kiba 5y ago
I have a T2 diabetic friend that complains about the cost of insulin, yet refuses to exercise and loose weight. Losing weight and keeping the weight is hard. It isn't a coincidence that we have an obesity epidemic for a reason. Suppose your friend did try to lose weight? More likely than not your friend will gain weight back. Yes, there's no excuse to try. but there's no expectation of success. People have not been suckered into anything. Most people lack the agency to change their circumstances. This is called learned helplessness and it is a big problem, but there are also contributing problems other than learned helplessness, such as structural problems surrounding housing options. In any case, blaming people for their lack of moral fortitude isn't really a solution at all. It means we stopped asking questions and looking for solutions.

fearface 5y ago

And your 2k include the cost of the car, related insurance and services, road tax?

zemvpferreira 5y ago
Not the cost of the car, I consider it well amortized (16 year old car). I do include everything else.

newsclues 5y ago

American cities (suburbs) are designed for cars, and for cars to be profitable for auto makers and oil companies.

slumdev 5y ago

To both of your questions, no. > Not to take away from your excellent point but is spending $9k/year on transportation really mandatory? Before "Cash for Clunkers", an Obama-era program that removed a lot of older vehicles from the road, it was normal to be able to purchase a functional and clean used vehicle for $2-3k. It is clear that the program was a great success at removing these vehicles. But with the average American car today being a mid-size SUV, it's not clear that it achieved its objective of reducing our CO2 emissions. Either way, the cost of a used vehicle today is much higher. > $7k on utilities? This is $700 per month. Someone in a medium-large house in a state with high electricity costs might spend this during the summer months. But the median American utility bill is probably in the $200-300 range, or $3600/year at the high end. The actual category on the linked web page includes "and other household operational costs". Figuring 1% of home value per year spent on maintenance, for a $300,000 home, that's another $3000. And that, combined with the utilities, gets us pretty close to the $7k number.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]