6 ms·

Can't say I really like the title as it comes across as an absolute statement whereas the bit flip could have happened for any number of unknown reasons. I saw

Can't say I really like the title as it comes across as an absolute statement whereas the bit flip could have happened for any number of unknown reasons. I saw a similar take on Twitter and whilst root causing such things (especially when it's a single occurrence) isn't always possible, shrugging and saying "cosmic rays" should be the last thing to posit not one of the first.

juped 5y ago
"cosmic rays" are more of a well-known term of art for "single bit flipped with unknown hardware cause" than a reference to literal cosmic rays
- gbrown_ 5y ago
  It is not a "well-known term", it is a cliché.
  - Intermernet 5y ago
    Clichés are all well known terms. Not all well known terms are clichés.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- solarkraft 5y ago
  Interesting, because I was thinking of ... cosmic rays.
  - juped 5y ago
    sometimes it really is cosmic rays! but you usually can't know after the fact
- drumbaby 5y ago
  I remember an older less-computer savvy gentlemen asking for support because "the program isn't working", when after a few questions we realized his computer won't boot up (screen dark, etc.). We thought his terminology was all screwed up. But now I realize he just lacked the necessary PR skill. He should have said that "the program isn't working" is a well-known term of art for power users such as himself. The fact that people who actually have a clue about computing find this imprecise term upsetting if there problem. It so happens that aside from developing software, I'm physicist working on particle physics (specifically, I make my living in industry from cosmic rays). So I can assure you that "cosmic rays" actually mean something. Something very specific. Books have been written full of specific intelligent things we can say about cosmic rays. If you go an appropriate it to describe a whole bunch of phenomena because you can't be bothered to distinguish between them, you're in the exact same boat as that gentlemen from the start of the story. Using wrong terms prevents understanding, as can be seen in all the stories linked elsethread so far. For example, using thinner silicon typically reduces the rate of Single-Event Upsets (the malfunctions caused by cosmic rays) but using smaller silicon components typically increases the rate of malfunctions due to quantum fluctuations. The latter typically happen in specific hardware that we manufactured not-quite-as-well as the rest. SEUs happen in the same rate in all hardware.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    You're saying you have to engineer chip components so they're small enough not to be hit as often by cosmic rays, but large enough to avoid quantum fluctuations? Are quantum fluctuations something Intel is dealing with regularly as they get down under 3nm?
    - eloff 5y ago
      Yes, quantum tunneling (an electron "teleporting" into or out of transistors) has been an issue everyone has had to design around for multiple process nodes now.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - 5y ago
XorNot 5y ago
Why? When you do Raman spectroscopy, in any given session you're likely to see 1 going through a 1 cm^2 sample. Students are taught that if you get a super sharp increasing looking peak, first rerun it because you probably just saw a cosmic ray.
wolf550e 5y ago
Hardware issues that cause bitflips like that one famous issue[1] with Sun servers in ~2000 (supposedly caused by radioactive isotopes in IBM manufactures SRAM chips) are often called "cosmic rays". 1 - https://www.computerworld.com/article/2585216/mcnealy-blames-ibm-for-sun-s-server-memory-flaws.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2585216/mcnealy-blames...
- gbrown_ 5y ago
  > are often called "cosmic rays". No! This exact issue is a classic example because at one point the fault was attributed to cosmic rays by Sun before the true cause came to light. As another commenter has said, terminology matters.

juped 5y ago

"cosmic rays" are more of a well-known term of art for "single bit flipped with unknown hardware cause" than a reference to literal cosmic rays

gbrown_ 5y ago
It is not a "well-known term", it is a cliché.
- Intermernet 5y ago
  Clichés are all well known terms. Not all well known terms are clichés.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
solarkraft 5y ago
Interesting, because I was thinking of ... cosmic rays.
- juped 5y ago
  sometimes it really is cosmic rays! but you usually can't know after the fact
drumbaby 5y ago
I remember an older less-computer savvy gentlemen asking for support because "the program isn't working", when after a few questions we realized his computer won't boot up (screen dark, etc.). We thought his terminology was all screwed up. But now I realize he just lacked the necessary PR skill. He should have said that "the program isn't working" is a well-known term of art for power users such as himself. The fact that people who actually have a clue about computing find this imprecise term upsetting if there problem. It so happens that aside from developing software, I'm physicist working on particle physics (specifically, I make my living in industry from cosmic rays). So I can assure you that "cosmic rays" actually mean something. Something very specific. Books have been written full of specific intelligent things we can say about cosmic rays. If you go an appropriate it to describe a whole bunch of phenomena because you can't be bothered to distinguish between them, you're in the exact same boat as that gentlemen from the start of the story. Using wrong terms prevents understanding, as can be seen in all the stories linked elsethread so far. For example, using thinner silicon typically reduces the rate of Single-Event Upsets (the malfunctions caused by cosmic rays) but using smaller silicon components typically increases the rate of malfunctions due to quantum fluctuations. The latter typically happen in specific hardware that we manufactured not-quite-as-well as the rest. SEUs happen in the same rate in all hardware.
- noduerme 5y ago
  You're saying you have to engineer chip components so they're small enough not to be hit as often by cosmic rays, but large enough to avoid quantum fluctuations? Are quantum fluctuations something Intel is dealing with regularly as they get down under 3nm?
  - eloff 5y ago
    Yes, quantum tunneling (an electron "teleporting" into or out of transistors) has been an issue everyone has had to design around for multiple process nodes now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 5y ago

XorNot 5y ago

Why? When you do Raman spectroscopy, in any given session you're likely to see 1 going through a 1 cm^2 sample. Students are taught that if you get a super sharp increasing looking peak, first rerun it because you probably just saw a cosmic ray.

wolf550e 5y ago

Hardware issues that cause bitflips like that one famous issue[1] with Sun servers in ~2000 (supposedly caused by radioactive isotopes in IBM manufactures SRAM chips) are often called "cosmic rays". 1 - https://www.computerworld.com/article/2585216/mcnealy-blames-ibm-for-sun-s-server-memory-flaws.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2585216/mcnealy-blames...

gbrown_ 5y ago
> are often called "cosmic rays". No! This exact issue is a classic example because at one point the fault was attributed to cosmic rays by Sun before the true cause came to light. As another commenter has said, terminology matters.